A poll and some pondering

[annwfyn]

Yesterday somehow turned into a fairly constructive day. Well, setting aside the hours in which I'd stalked the library scowling at books, sulked in my room and ranted at a very understanding stuffed zebra. I still, however, managed to get a fairly reasonable amount of work done. I did a solid 9-5 pm day, and then spent the evening sampling Greek food at a nice restaurant in Summertown (it is lovely - anyone from Oxford - if you're up in Summertown look out for the Greek-Cypriot place on the Banbury Road) and then found myself at the cinema watching 'It's All Gone Pete Tong', which turned out to be much better than expected and surprisingly sweet in places.

Tonight I am driving to Hatfield for castorlion's birthday, and then back to London afterwards. Then back to Oxford the next morning.

Anyway, moving away from 'wot I did', I am currently pondering. This comes from a conversation I had the other day. Now, over the years, I have seen a number of various bust ups, explosions and grudges held over what can be described as 'person theft' or 'trollop like behaviour'. I put various types of behaviour which are not technically evil, but cause trauma and then are normally forgiven. I put in situations like 'she knew I liked him, but went out with him anyway', 'I think he and her were getting close while we were still together and then started going out a week later', 'he was my best mate and started seeing my ex while I was still hung up on her'. That kind of thing.

Now, I was discussing situations such as this with pierot* and he commented that in his opinion it was far harder to forgive and forget behaviour such as this if the couple stayed together. It meant that there was a constant low level reminder that it had happened. I suppose as well there would be a reminder that someone else was benefitting from your pain, in some way. I think I disagreed. I felt that in some ways it was easier to get over such things if the couple did get married and live happily ever after. In my mind, that means that their relationship really meant something. And (in my rather pink tinged world view) you can't really resent True Love or some variant thereof.

This got discussed, and pondered and I'm still pondering it today.

So. Imagine your girlfriend ran off with another man a week after she broke up with you 'because I just need to be by myself right now'. Imagine your best friend stole the guy you'd been eying up for months. What is easier to forgive?

[Poll #504230]


* Who I've noticed I mention far far too often. Nearly every single LJ entry. It's rather pathetic, isn't it? My only excuse is that he does tend to be the person I start having these conversations with that I then bring to the outside world. That and I spend far too much time with the boy. Oh well. I suppose there are worst things in the world than a relationship where one enjoys the other's company and conversation.

Comments

[ksirafai.livejournal.com]

it's possible I'm mildly abnormal in that... well, fair enough. If they're gettin distracted by someone else, then chances are they shouldn't be where I am in the first place.

That, and I'm a bit of a bitch for wandering off because I'm bored or think I've pretty much learnt all I can from a situation...

(It's all about the caring attitudes here. Sorry! :P )

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, you probably cause far less long term trauma, and that's a good thing. Sometimes repressive is the way to go :p

Oh - and go e mail Matt Hope. He's failing to play a Giovanni for my convenience and was last heard murmuring that he has this psychiatrist concept, and would it be any use to you and yours?

[ksirafai.livejournal.com]

*rgins* I'll bear it in mind if it ever twinges at my decidedly-non-guilt-ridden heartstrings. :P

Elsewise I could quite happily nick that concept, yeah... *grins* I'll mail him or LJ him.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

He may be a dirty dirty Ventrue in some form, but I figure you can work with that.

[ksirafai.livejournal.com]

Hm. I'll hand him over to MattMatt (the adventurer, MattMatt, warrior without fear... *cough* Uh, I stop singing now. :P) if he's not lineageyness. Or Elle, mebbe. :)

[bringeroflight.livejournal.com]

I reckon it's everyone else who's abnormal. ;P

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

I would not want to stand in the way of true love, better someone is with someone they want to be with than resenting being with you.

I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt but who wants to be with someone that doesn't love them, I don't.

I would be more hurt by lying. If someone left saying they wanted space then were dating someone else, who they were obviously close to before you split up, a week later then it would be blatantly obvious what had happened. I would rather be given the respect and told the truth, it hurts a lot less in the long run.

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

Part of category A: Well she was meant to be with him anyway, we were doomed (moral, knight part of me) Part of category B: Well, she was a hell bitch and she would never have lasted in any relationship, it's not me, it's her! (Evil, scumlord part oif me)

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I suppose it probably also shifts with time. I know I tend to go KABOOM and then settle down. There are very few people I have real grudges against these days for old relationship ills.

I think you are probably also affected by how your life is going. I think being in a fairly stable relationship myself makes it a lot easier to be chilled about other people from my past.

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

Well, I've only been the evil one, picking up someone a week out of a relationship, so I don't know exactly how I would react. Most likely with an axe initially and philosphy later.

[suave-steve.livejournal.com]

Option 2 - for the pettiness inside.

[souldestruction.livejournal.com]

What you're talking about is actively doing something to hurt someone that you are ment to care about.

If you actively go out with a mates ex, or you screw over a mate to get the girl or bloke first. These are decisions that you have chosen to make, these things do not happen by accident.

For me I don't think it would be the fact that "said couple" are still together, but more the "betrayal" that took place that would be hard to stomach.

but hey we're all guilty of it.

Also "true love", yeah well maybe. More like true love until one party gets bored, or fancies someone else, or see's the grass is greener. Everything has a time span, sometimes that time span will last past the lifes of those involved, but i've covered this before.

One last thing, I don't believe there is one person for each of us, thats just crap, sure couples get married and live a great life, but thats not to say they couldn't have married other people and been just as happy and in love.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*ponders*

I'm not entirely sure that these things always do occur due to real malice, and I think different people have different views. For example, I do have one friend who has always said that in her mind, then once a relationship is over, it's over. No more rights on either side. I've seen her stick by that even when it has been painful for her. I think in some ways I'd find it fair if she then went out with an ex of mine - she's always been open about how she works and she is consistent with it.

People also can do these things out of stupidity - just not noticing. God knows, I've twice in my life managed to date someone that a friend of mine had feelings for. Both times it was purely out of ignorance. I honestly wasn't aware of what was going in inside the other girl's head. Weirdly, both times I lost the friendship utterly, but the relationship lasted a long time. One was my high school sweetheart who I still get on really well with.

I don't think I believe in The One. I do think I believe that sometimes there is a special kind of chemistry which is worth holding on it, especially if it is a good and positive chemistry. *ponders*

I think I used to have a much much harsher attitude on such things - much closer to yours. I know I've screwed up in the past tho, and gone out with people when I maybe shouldn't because I hadn't noticed a mate of mine getting emotional. I know I've also thrown fits about a friend going out with an ex, and later on felt that the trouble I'd caused wasn't worth it, esp not when nothing positive ever came out of me being hissy.

I've kind of tried to calm it down since then. Dunno. Just pondering, really.

[vilenspotens.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, some things stay with you despite whether people (both jilted and jiltee) ever move on. Some things just fester in the back of the mind among the worlds of "what if" regardless of how a situation changes.

Is it then fair to blame someone for moving on after a break up just becuse a person can't seem let go? Or in fact, to carry a grudge over a break up that you may have caused yourself?

We are inherently selfish creatures that never like to be reminded of loss or failure, regardless of how our own lives improve.

Much of the long term damage is not a cause of the person leaving, but the inability of the person left to deal with the changes.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

It must be said, that one thing which I have worked really hard to work on is my attitude to exes. I spent years being kinda weird and insane with them at times. I tended to find it hard to move on totally. I'm quite proud of the fact that lately I've been able to say 'erm...this feels a bit weird, but I'll get over it' and then actually get over it when a friend did start dating an ex of mine.

A couple of years back I'd have hit the roof.

And yes - I do agree with you on people often being inherently selfish. We are, after all, not really able to see the world from anyone else's point of view. We can imagine what it might be, but we never really KNOW. Not without telepathy. That means that all events only really take place in relation to our own position.

*nods*

[vilenspotens.livejournal.com]

And aside from not knowing, we've also been taught not to ask as we are inevitably lied to, won't believe the truth unless it's what we want to hear, or simply are too scared to find out. None of which helps the self-confidence.

*shrugs* It also gets easier with age. Either a case of time heals things, or we just get too old to care anymore.

Re: *nods*

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

One of the scarier things I've discovered in life is that at times there is NO way of ever knowing for sure what the truth of any given situation really is.

I've had people lie to my face, and been utterly convincing. Later I've found out they've lied through their teeth. I've had people genuinely believe they are telling me the truth about something, when really they have just gotten the wrong end of the stick. So, asking directly often doesn't work.

I've completely misunderstood actions myself and assumed other people work like me, when they really don't. So, deductive reasoning is also out of the window.

And let's not even touch eye witness statements!

I do tend to think that a lot does get easier with age. I think, particularly when it comes to relationship type stuff, you learn that everything does heal, and that some things that you care about so much when you're young are just dross. That, and I guess big things happen that put everything else into perspective.

I still can blow up over small things or get upset over absolutely nothing, but I look at myself now and compare myself to me-at-19 and I know I've come a long way.

Re: *nods*

[vilenspotens.livejournal.com]

Yep. Good thing we don't have telepathy really, or we'd naver have any friends.

We just have to learn with time that all you really need to do in life is become cynical and jaded, accepting that most people look out for Number 1 first. Kinda kicks holes in that true love thing annoyingly. Even lovers lie to each other.

Re: *nods*

[lanfykins.livejournal.com]

Whereas I'm currently discovering that things go an awful lot smoother when I stop lying to my lover.

This will likely all cease when I return to the real world :)

Re: *nods*

[vilenspotens.livejournal.com]

It shouldn't be that way, but it is. The truth is always preferable, even if it can hurt.

What's the phrase? "When you lie you kill a little piece of the world"? Perhapes the worls is too big and people should think "When you lie you kill a little piece of yourself"

[rweishaar.livejournal.com]

Eh. I don't know. For a while, I would be REALLY pissed. Then again it depends. Is this christa, with whom I expect to marry and spend the rest of my life with? Or some chickie I have been banging for the last 6 months and is really nothing more than a good roll in the hay.

If its Christa, expect me to find them and cut their balls off.
If its the other, then expect me to do the same, but get over it fairly quickly.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I think you're right in that it is a massively subjective thing. Realistically, everyone would be a bit pissed off for a while, or at least have a bit of a twinge. And realistically, everyone would tend to get over things a lot more quickly if the relationship didn't mean that much in the first place.

I also tend to find it varies massively depending on where I am in my life. These days I'm in a fairly stable relationship, so it's kinda hard for me to actually get very pissy about my exes moving on as well. On the other hand, I think if I'd broken up with someone, was still single, not too sure about whether I did the right thing, bit wibbly in general, I'd be way more explosive.

And I guess in the end everyone does move on, or at least should do. Although I was rather alarmed to discover a while ago that the girl who stopped talking to me in high school because I ran off with her on/off ex is still pissed at both of us. That's currently eleven years and counting. I feel that may be taking a grudge a little too far.

[bringeroflight.livejournal.com]

Of course, it would be very unlikely I'd fall out with someone in the first place. I'm not fond of dishonesty, and it's one of the few things that rile me.

If someone was honest about something or messed up through ignorance, yeah, it happens, move on and no problems.

If there was deliberate lying / breaking rules of relationship I would be very narked with the person I was in a relationship with, but not the other party - I wasn't in a relationship with them therefore they didn't have any obligation with regards to that.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

My first boyfriend dumped me, then within a week started seeing a friend from physics (we were 19 - I started late). That was ok, but finding ut he'd been "courting" her - buying presents, chatting her up, visiting her in halls - for 3 of the 6 months he'd been seeing me, wasn't.

But then they got married and are still together, so suddenly it didn't matter so much.

OTOH, you know what I think about the Cock Juggling Thunder C*nt and her attitudes towards other people's boyfriends. And I'd never have been able to relax with Jason if I hadn't talked about stuff with you.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

On a random note - I really appreciated the way you did act towards me when you started seeing Jason. It really did make a difference, and was actually a major break through for me. I never thought I'd be OK with one of my friends dating one of my exes, but you handled the whole thing really sensitively and I discovered I could move on and just be happy for you guys.

Was muchly appreciated.

[nickys.livejournal.com]

> I put in situations like 'she knew I liked him, but went out with him anyway', 'I think he and her were getting close while we were still together and then started going out a week later', 'he was my best mate and started seeing my ex while I was still hung up on her'. That kind of thing.

I think in these circumstances it depends on the intent.

If someone is off on a massive insecurity attack or ego-trip and is deliberately breaking up other people's relationships then
a) they need help
and
b) it's not easy to forgive (and indeed not sensible to forgive - I generally believe that forgiveness has to be at least partially conditional on an intent to behave better in future)


but if stuff happens and people genuinely fall in love then I think you just have to accept that you don't own partners and let them move on.


As for leaving someone, really, if you don't want to be with them then you should break up with them, because otherwise you're just lying to them really.
It gets bad if you line up the new partner before breaking up with the old one, though. That is bad.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

It gets bad if you line up the new partner before breaking up with the old one, though. That is bad.

Do you think that can happen by accident, tho? I know I've been in situations where I've been in a not-quite-working relationship and found myself developing feelings for someone else. Is there an ethical way to deal with that kind of situation?

[nickys.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, that can happen by accident too.

I should think the ethical thing to do would be to break off the first relationship as soon as possible after you realise that the new one is developing.
You can't really do more than that.