Feminism

[annwfyn]

This is a random ponder.

What does feminism mean to you?

Is it possible to be a feminist and still expect men to open doors for you/pay for dates etc?

Is it possible to be a feminist and wear short skirts, lots of make up etc?

Is it possible to be a feminist and generally play 'the girl card'?

I'm also pondering people (such as myself) to be honest, who'd claim to 'not be a feminist' while still expecting equal job opportunities, equal pay, etc. Are we actually stealth feminists? Or just very spoilt people who are happy to take the good stuff that generations of feminism have brought up without being prepared to actually continue on the work or even acknowledge all that we owe to it?

Does feminism have a place in this day and age? After all, this is the 21st century. Maybe more specifically, does feminism really have a place in the comfortable middle class England/Scotland/Australia/America that I think all the readers of my journal live in. If you're a woman in Britain, do you really have that much to fight for? Or should we accept that the fight has been won and that the wrongs in our society aren't really often directed at anyone solely because of their gender.

Opinions?

Comments

[vilenspotens.livejournal.com]

feminism: The desire to remain feminine and (and I have to say this *grins*) -all soft and girly- whilst enjoying equality in all things and not being made second class for choosing to be the person you want to be.

Then again, I believe in most western cultures women are equals, and sometimes, superior. Therefore militant feminsism is mainly those females that want to be on top after millenia of being kept back. Therein lies the difference.

Personally I like the soft and squidgy variety, no reason they still can't be equal. Just don't try to achieve a superiority by using tried and tested techniques that didn't work against women in the past against others and feminists are great. :)

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*tilts head*

OK, but is there a point at which a girl is wanting to have her cake and eat it, if she's trying to combine traditional femininity (looking pretty, being softer, having door opened for her, getting guys to do stuff by fluttering her eyelashes) and a modern day belief in equality?

For example - the girl who says "oh - I'll get some guy to go and do that for me. I'll flutter my eyelashes and he'll do it" - is it reasonable for her to then be offended if the man later won't take her seriously and tells her to "not worry your pretty little head about that"?

Is there a point at which traditional feminine behaviour involves buying into a dynamic in which traditionally women had a lot of subtle and indirect power (the wife who runs the house, and publicly defers to her husband but murmurs things in private like 'now, dear, have you thought of this...') but no overt power? Is there a point at which if you've asked to be looked after, because you're a girl*, you lose some of the right to be taken seriously and treated equally?

It's an argument I've heard made. If you act like a Pretty Ickle Girlie, you can't complain if you get treated like a Pretty Ickle Girlie.

I'm not sure to what extent I believe in that argument or not. I've certainly got some sympathy for it.


*Not that you are. A girl that is. No. Not at all. Even when you had long hair I always thought of you as very manly.

[souldestruction.livejournal.com]

I think everyone should get one of these...

http://www.foulmouthshirts.com/Political-t-shirts/shirtpages/So-youre-a-feminist-Isnt-that-cute-T-shirt-Political-T-shirts.htm

[commlal.livejournal.com]

Oh potental hot potatoe there!

Is there really anything that is "Femanist" I don't expect to get any benifits because I'm female, or any favours. We are all human at the end of the day, regardless of gender, age, skin colour, sexual preference or disability. We are the sum of our skills, thoughts and experences.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I don't expect to get any benifits because I'm female, or any favours.

But do you expect to be treated equally because you're female?

One thing that really struck me a while ago came out of a debate with someone I know. I was talking about basic equal rights for women, and the issue of whether or not it would be reasonable for a company to not employ a woman in her late 20s-early 30s in case she got pregnant came up.

His argument was that it was entirely reasonable. In a market economy, surely it is reasonable for a small company to not employ someone from a group of people who are statistically more likely to require months off at full pay, if you could find someone equally qualified who would not be likely to do that.

We got into a debate about it, and I realised what a catch #22 it is. If you say 'that's discrimination', you are asking for preferential treatment in some ways. Statistically, and based on purely mercenary grounds, married women in their early 30s probably are WAY more likely to cost a company money by taking maternity leave than a male employee would cost them in potential sick leave etc. On the other hand, if you say 'no, that's reasonable' then you're entering a world that does worry me.

It occured to me then that even base equality in some ways does require society to make certain allowances for women sometimes. Or doesn't it?

As I said elsewhere, I don't mean for this to be a vile flamewar or anything. It isn't a massive emotional issue for me. It was just something I was pondering.

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure there are actually any rules on being a feminist. I think it comes down to whether you call yourself one and whether people believe you.

Whether it has any place also sort of depends on what you consider the role of feminism to be. Personally, I consider it a sort of gender communism, and since I think most people these days generally accept to some degree or other that men and women aren't equal in any ways other than ideological ones, it's not a red flag I see much point in people waving.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*ponders*

Am I waving a red flag? This isn't something I'm deeply emotional about. It's more a question that I was pondering and wondered what other people's views might be.

[taimatsu]

men and women aren't equal in any ways other than ideological ones

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here.

[ravenseer.livejournal.com]

I think there is a place for feminism in today's culture. I think there will always need to be feminism, till the day women have the respect that all men have as a matter of course.

That sounds quite militant. I don't mean for it to, but some of the things that have affected me include the following -
That women have to take care what they wear, coming home from a pub, to protect themselves from anyone lurking in the shadows, or following them (this naturally raises the question of what about the nice friendly cammie or sca'er, or someone you know who offers you a drink at a party or after game that happens to be spiked.... tangent....)

Yes we have acheived some rights, and certainly I am not talking about making men pay for the actions of only a few, but while sexism exists, it creates and pervades a culture that accepts that its is 'ok' or 'not a crime' to harrass or attack a girl who is a 'tease', or god forbid sleeps around.

In the US, recently men have been brought to trial on charges of rape with video evidence, ie the crime was caught on camera. They walked. The girl had been drinking and smoking copiously, and coming on to them. The audible "no' and her struggles, did not make any difference, how could she know what she wants??? *sarcasm*

Sorry - as a survivor of sexual violence, I want to see the day every woman stands up and says that this happened to them. One of the biggest memes I have ever seen on LJ was No Pity No Shame No silence. 2 out of 3 LJers who were female answered positively. It was the biggest meme LJ has ever seen, and it was on people who had been sexually abused or assaulted.

I want to see all people respect each other as human beings. See, for me, feminism is not about women getting power, its about all people having an even playing field - its a human right. Its not about a matriarchy, but about all people being accepted in this world.

*end soapbox rant*

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

But what about the dangers that apply to men? It was pointed out to me lately that a guy on his own is actually statistically more likely to be attacked than a woman - men get beaten up for wearing the wrong football shirt, for dressing strangely, for being in the wrong place when a bunch of drunk thugs come out of the pub. Men are often viewed as 'acceptable' for other men to have a go at when they might be more gentle with women.

Yes, there is violence against women and it is horrific and bad, but there are things in this world which women are entirely immune from, by virtue of being women. I have one friend who got attacked in the street when he went back to his hometown for Christmas. He was attacked by a couple of guys he knew at school who had heard that he was gay. A female friend of mine came out at around the same time, and I think got more leering than anything else - she wasn't seen as threatening and therefore in need to bashing than anything else.

Heck, lesbianism wasn't even a crime while sodomy carried a prison sentence!

How do those evils balance out?

Again - apologies if I am offending. This is entirely an entry designed to make me think and work through some fairly contraditory views in my head.

[suchid.livejournal.com]

The majority of feminism that is practiced today, in my view, is an excuse for women to hide behind having a lack of self confidence and self esteem (at the hands of 'men') so that they can denigrate men and do exactly what they slam men for having done to them.

True Feminism, equality for their gender, has happened. It's not totally happened, but then the world and society is still changing and not all women agree with feminism. (Hell, I've a friend who thinks women of the late 19th and early 20th century were the dumbest women on earth for pushing for independence and equality in the work place.)

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*ponders*

I think I disagree violently with the notion that independence for women is a bad idea. Not having that means that women spend their lives reliant on men - all very nice if you get a nice boy to look after you, but how on earth would a women who had no financial independence leave an abusive husband, or even get out of a marriage she was miserable in? What on earth could a girl do if her family started trying to pressure her into something she really didn't want to do. Ultimately, to have any power over your own life, you need a measure of financial independence, surely. And that has to come from having the right to work.

*ponders more*

What is your friend's argument for it being a bad idea?

[raggedhalo.livejournal.com]

True Feminism, equality for their gender, has happened.

Not so. To use the lowest common indicator, female graduates get paid 15% less, on average, than male counterparts immediately after leaving Uni. Equality, my arse.

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

The fight has largely been won but there are still elements of discrimination against women about the place, even where it is not 'official' women come up against mysogonist, outdated attitudes which really need to be eliminated before we are truly a society of equals. One area I've noticed is some peoples attitudes to pregnancy and children. Suddenly you are not as competent or as reliable as before according to some people, even worse you should be staying at home where you belong instead of going out to work, apparently it can be very selfish to work while a mother of small children.

I think of feminism as being able to expect an equal respect to men. The same pay for the same work, the same opportunities with the same aptitude and an acknowledgement that women are not inferior.

I like chivalry but then again I think manners in anyone should be encouraged, I also think that men and women are sometimes more suited to different types of work such as physical labour, it is opportunity and respect that is important differences between the genders are fine after that point.

I think being girly or 'tarty' can be a feminists perogative. It is the perogative to be girly without people being able to officially judge your abilities or competence on it. A girl should be able to work down the street in a short skirt with people having respect for her choice in how she dresses, non of this'she's asking to be raped' nonsense.

[ravenseer.livejournal.com]

Exactly!

This is what I mean.

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

I'm a feminist because I believe in the equality of men and women and would like to live in a world where discrimination on the basis of gender does not exist. Sadly, I don't think we're there yet.

I don't object to people opening doors for me because I open doors for people too. Male, female or aardvark.

I don't think feminism has anything to do with how you dress.

Hang on, I'll go find an essay on this I was shown a while back and liked a lot - http://www.tomatonation.com/youare.shtml

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Ooooh...I like that. It is rather nice.

Again, same question I asked Lee, is there some kind of behaviour which would make you question whether someone has the right to demand equality or describe herself as a 'feminist'? For example, a girl who won't even bother taking her purse on a date, because it's the man's place to pay (I read that example in a US magazine - it was an article on whether it was reasonable or not. The end conclusion was that you should take your purse, just in case, but if a man didn't pay on the first date then you shouldn't bother with a second), or the girl who turns up to larps with a corset and basically role plays 'the girl with breasts who expects victory through cleavage', or even the housewife who hasn't worked since she got married...?

Are there any forms of behaviour which would seem to firmly leave someone in the Not-Feminist Camp?

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Aristophanes once commented that "if you make a woman your equal then she becomes your superior" for exactly the opening doors/paying for dates reasons above.
Personally I open doors and pay for dates even when I'm with a feminist because I hope to have sex again sometime before I die, and I don't think the debate needs any more comment than that :)

[silver-blue.livejournal.com]

And it's the gentlemanly thing to do, anyway. :)

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

I want legal and financial equality. I also want our differences to be appreciated and different allowances made for us.

I want to occassionally be deferred to on random technical things, because that will make me feel good. At the same time I will be more polite to women, and hold more doors open for them.

Playing the girl card is a tough one. If someone happens to say "Oh, Ben, I cannot possibly understand this screw top jar, could you open it for me, you big manly, man?" then I will open the jar for him or her, but will assume (regardless of gender) that they are a bit useless in the jar opening stakes from then on, and treat them accordinly. he or she cannot later say "you are opressing me by not letting me open jars".

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

If you ever hear me saying the words 'oh Ben, you big manly man' to you then...

...then...

Sorry. I'm getting a fit of the giggles at the moment. I don't know why. I think it's the phrasing.

Ahem.

Erm.

I do think you're manly. Honest. Not sure why I'm losing it...

*explodes in giggles again*

[raggedhalo.livejournal.com]

Equality doesn't mean being the same, which is important to remember.

However, if you expect men to open doors and pay for dates because they're men and you're a woman, you should probably also expect them to expect you to open your legs on demand, have dinner on the table when he gets home, and so on. It might be nice if people occasionally followed traditional gender roles, but that's quite different to it being the norm.

Did you know female graduates in the UK can expect to learn 15% less than their male counterparts? That 93% of reported rapes happen to women? There's lots of other stuff, too, that indicates that the structural oppression against women is far from defeated yet.

I, however, am not a feminist. I am an egalitarian. Feminism is outdated, but was necessary in its time to open up certain dialogues that were totally taboo in the 1950s.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

What does feminism mean to you?

Equality as far as is possible due to physical constraints. I wouldn't expect a woman to be able to lift as much as a man, but I'd expect them both to try to lift as much as possible if it was required of them.

Is it possible to be a feminist and still expect men to open doors for you/pay for dates etc?

Under some circumstances. If a man routinely opens doors for me, I'll be more tolerant of "...but you're a girl" attitudes in other things. The only times I'd *expect* door opening etc are (a) if my hands are full, and it's the polite and helpful thing (but then I'd open the door for a man in the same circumstances), or (b) if I've intentionally and clearly set up the relationship between me and $man to include door opening as one of his duties.

I expect a man to pay for dates if he's asked me somewhere he *knows* I can't afford, or if he's specified in advance it's his treat to me.


Is it possible to be a feminist and wear short skirts, lots of make up etc?

Yes. You should be able to wear whatever you wnat, and look however makes you happy.

People *shouldn't* make assumptions about you based on your appearance, but it's rpetty much unavoidable. However, those assumptions *shouldn't* include intelligence or other capabilities (in Cam-speak - they could make social assumptions, but not mental or physical ones).

Is it possible to be a feminist and generally play 'the girl card'?


Yes, if she's willing to accept te result of that. If I can't open a jar, I'll ask someone who appears stronger for help. If I can open the jar, but pretend I can't, I can't then complain if the helper assumes I'm weaker than them in other similar areas.

Women who do the whole helpless thing are (IMO) taking advantage of men. It's fine to be capable of doing traditionally male tasks and choose to pretend you can't, but *only* if you accept that men will then take advantage of you and pretend to be unable to cook, clean, etc.

I think what I'm saying is, taking traditional roles in a relationship is fine so long as it's a genuine agreement between the couple, and both their opinions have been considered equally.

[borusa.livejournal.com]

taking traditional roles in a relationship is fine so long as it's a genuine agreement between the couple

Is a genuine agreement possible? Societal pressures, which to a large degree are still towards traditional roles, would be an influence on most people. Is the slave who willingly obeys his master not still a slave?

[aardnebby.livejournal.com]

Hmm... is mocking manflu feminism?

I have scientific evidence that the flu virus is attracted to the Y chromosome!

[commlal.livejournal.com]

Ya big jessie. :D

[madwitch.livejournal.com]

Feminism: Another one of the great dividers of society. Dividers are bad.

(There's a calm and rational explanation attached to that thought. I suspect I have a very odd point of view, though. Or just a weird brain)

[inskauldrak.livejournal.com]

Yes feminism does have a place in today's society, but it has achieved enough that it needn't be anything like the 'cartoon' image of militant-man-hating

Earnings and similar indicators show that women do still get held back which means that the job's not yet done. But, I also think it's dangerous to divide the equalities agenda - for instance homosexuals nearly got left out of the new equalities bill whilst racial/disability was covered. Thankfully that appears to be fixed!

It's all part of a process and so to use your example of pregnancy - yes, there are physiological differences that mean that women will require some time off to have a baby. But, the Plan(tm) for maternity leave is to phase it into 12months paid leave but at the point it hits twelve months it will become 'parental leave' and the mother and father will be able to choose how they divide that time (this is after the baby being born bit!) and that means that men and women will be far more equal in a positive way.

In terms of dressing up nice - hey, people like to dress up and look pretty now and again regardless of gender so there's nothing wrong with that!

In terms of door-holding - hmmm, I think it's nice to be gentlemanly, but I'll often hold the door for whoever is walking through after me regardless of gender. I don't think it should be expected of men and not women, but a bit of courtesy all round is a good thing.

[rweishaar.livejournal.com]

Hmm... tricky.

I dont think feminism has much reason to be around anymore. Not really.
Lets forget the fact that most 'feminist' organizations balloon statistics to fit their world view. At least, the statistics I have seen for America.

1) Women get paid less than Men and thats not fair.

Is it? If you walked into a job interview and told them that you have a medical condition that might require you to take several days off possibly every month AND that same medical condition might put you out of work for months at a time if not permanently after they have trained you up, is it discrimination for them to say they arent going to hire you? Is it discrimination for them to agree to give you a salary but at a slightly lower wage due to the fact that you may call out sick? Granted, once you say 'That medical condition is PMS and/or childbirth' people may change their tune. Something else to keep in mind. I do Ultrasounds, which is a predominantly female occupation. It requires a great level of skill and intelligence. I can do the same examinations as the female sonographers, yet I am getting paid 10% less than them, not because I cant do these certain examinations, but because some of the time the female patients would prefer I not do them. Am I being discriminated against because of my gender?

2) Women are more likely to be the victims of domestic violence than men.

True, cant really argue with that. But is that honestly a feminist issue? I know I am going to catch flak for this, but really, if a husband beats up on his wife and she doesnt pack up and get the fuck out, does she have anyone else to blame but herself? You can argue all day long that she may have no where to go, feel trapped, need to stay for the kids, but there are enough social programs and private shelters that she need NEVER go back to the bastard. The courts are so skewed towards protecting women now that they almost always consider giving custody to the birth mother in a divorce. And there are laws on the books now, that the police dont need the wife's testamony to seek prosecution. If you want to worry about someone, worry about children. They can't defend themselves. Women can go out and buy mace. Women can go to the police or a shelter. Not saying that its a perfect world, but its NEVER going to be a perfect world. People are always going to beat up on other people. You arent going to change the fucking animals who do this. You can only get better support systems.

3) Women are more likely to be the victims of rape than men.

Yep, cant argue with that. But again I ask, what are you going to do? You cant change society, you never will. Without some genetic reboot cure-all, there will always be rapists. There will always be murderers for that matter. Dealing with rape is almost always reactive. Legislate after the crime. Punish the bastards who have done it. Because you cant change human nature.

4) Another thing I ponder. Why is it that there is special legislation for domestic violence induced murder? Is a wife being murdered by her husband somehow worse than a guy getting beaten to death for his shoes? No, it isnt.

5) Women dont have the equal opportunity for jobs.

In a lot of areas, they do. However, as sexist as it sounds, there are some jobs women either cant or shouldnt be allowed to do. Let me give you one off the top of my head that I know a lot about personally. Women in a combat infantry unit. Bad. Such a bad idea. I will give you three reasons off the top of my head without thinking hard about it.

A) Women are instinctual nurturers.
B) Mans instinctual desire to protect a woman on the battlefield.
C) Sexual relations on the battlefield.

6) Did you know that the NIH spends 60 percent of its health budget on strictly womens issues? How is that fair?