Feminism

[annwfyn]

This is a random ponder.

What does feminism mean to you?

Is it possible to be a feminist and still expect men to open doors for you/pay for dates etc?

Is it possible to be a feminist and wear short skirts, lots of make up etc?

Is it possible to be a feminist and generally play 'the girl card'?

I'm also pondering people (such as myself) to be honest, who'd claim to 'not be a feminist' while still expecting equal job opportunities, equal pay, etc. Are we actually stealth feminists? Or just very spoilt people who are happy to take the good stuff that generations of feminism have brought up without being prepared to actually continue on the work or even acknowledge all that we owe to it?

Does feminism have a place in this day and age? After all, this is the 21st century. Maybe more specifically, does feminism really have a place in the comfortable middle class England/Scotland/Australia/America that I think all the readers of my journal live in. If you're a woman in Britain, do you really have that much to fight for? Or should we accept that the fight has been won and that the wrongs in our society aren't really often directed at anyone solely because of their gender.

Opinions?

Comments

[vilenspotens.livejournal.com]

feminism: The desire to remain feminine and (and I have to say this *grins*) -all soft and girly- whilst enjoying equality in all things and not being made second class for choosing to be the person you want to be.

Then again, I believe in most western cultures women are equals, and sometimes, superior. Therefore militant feminsism is mainly those females that want to be on top after millenia of being kept back. Therein lies the difference.

Personally I like the soft and squidgy variety, no reason they still can't be equal. Just don't try to achieve a superiority by using tried and tested techniques that didn't work against women in the past against others and feminists are great. :)

[souldestruction.livejournal.com]

I think everyone should get one of these...

http://www.foulmouthshirts.com/Political-t-shirts/shirtpages/So-youre-a-feminist-Isnt-that-cute-T-shirt-Political-T-shirts.htm

[commlal.livejournal.com]

Oh potental hot potatoe there!

Is there really anything that is "Femanist" I don't expect to get any benifits because I'm female, or any favours. We are all human at the end of the day, regardless of gender, age, skin colour, sexual preference or disability. We are the sum of our skills, thoughts and experences.

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure there are actually any rules on being a feminist. I think it comes down to whether you call yourself one and whether people believe you.

Whether it has any place also sort of depends on what you consider the role of feminism to be. Personally, I consider it a sort of gender communism, and since I think most people these days generally accept to some degree or other that men and women aren't equal in any ways other than ideological ones, it's not a red flag I see much point in people waving.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*tilts head*

OK, but is there a point at which a girl is wanting to have her cake and eat it, if she's trying to combine traditional femininity (looking pretty, being softer, having door opened for her, getting guys to do stuff by fluttering her eyelashes) and a modern day belief in equality?

For example - the girl who says "oh - I'll get some guy to go and do that for me. I'll flutter my eyelashes and he'll do it" - is it reasonable for her to then be offended if the man later won't take her seriously and tells her to "not worry your pretty little head about that"?

Is there a point at which traditional feminine behaviour involves buying into a dynamic in which traditionally women had a lot of subtle and indirect power (the wife who runs the house, and publicly defers to her husband but murmurs things in private like 'now, dear, have you thought of this...') but no overt power? Is there a point at which if you've asked to be looked after, because you're a girl*, you lose some of the right to be taken seriously and treated equally?

It's an argument I've heard made. If you act like a Pretty Ickle Girlie, you can't complain if you get treated like a Pretty Ickle Girlie.

I'm not sure to what extent I believe in that argument or not. I've certainly got some sympathy for it.


*Not that you are. A girl that is. No. Not at all. Even when you had long hair I always thought of you as very manly.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*ponders*

Am I waving a red flag? This isn't something I'm deeply emotional about. It's more a question that I was pondering and wondered what other people's views might be.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I don't expect to get any benifits because I'm female, or any favours.

But do you expect to be treated equally because you're female?

One thing that really struck me a while ago came out of a debate with someone I know. I was talking about basic equal rights for women, and the issue of whether or not it would be reasonable for a company to not employ a woman in her late 20s-early 30s in case she got pregnant came up.

His argument was that it was entirely reasonable. In a market economy, surely it is reasonable for a small company to not employ someone from a group of people who are statistically more likely to require months off at full pay, if you could find someone equally qualified who would not be likely to do that.

We got into a debate about it, and I realised what a catch #22 it is. If you say 'that's discrimination', you are asking for preferential treatment in some ways. Statistically, and based on purely mercenary grounds, married women in their early 30s probably are WAY more likely to cost a company money by taking maternity leave than a male employee would cost them in potential sick leave etc. On the other hand, if you say 'no, that's reasonable' then you're entering a world that does worry me.

It occured to me then that even base equality in some ways does require society to make certain allowances for women sometimes. Or doesn't it?

As I said elsewhere, I don't mean for this to be a vile flamewar or anything. It isn't a massive emotional issue for me. It was just something I was pondering.

[ravenseer.livejournal.com]

I think there is a place for feminism in today's culture. I think there will always need to be feminism, till the day women have the respect that all men have as a matter of course.

That sounds quite militant. I don't mean for it to, but some of the things that have affected me include the following -
That women have to take care what they wear, coming home from a pub, to protect themselves from anyone lurking in the shadows, or following them (this naturally raises the question of what about the nice friendly cammie or sca'er, or someone you know who offers you a drink at a party or after game that happens to be spiked.... tangent....)

Yes we have acheived some rights, and certainly I am not talking about making men pay for the actions of only a few, but while sexism exists, it creates and pervades a culture that accepts that its is 'ok' or 'not a crime' to harrass or attack a girl who is a 'tease', or god forbid sleeps around.

In the US, recently men have been brought to trial on charges of rape with video evidence, ie the crime was caught on camera. They walked. The girl had been drinking and smoking copiously, and coming on to them. The audible "no' and her struggles, did not make any difference, how could she know what she wants??? *sarcasm*

Sorry - as a survivor of sexual violence, I want to see the day every woman stands up and says that this happened to them. One of the biggest memes I have ever seen on LJ was No Pity No Shame No silence. 2 out of 3 LJers who were female answered positively. It was the biggest meme LJ has ever seen, and it was on people who had been sexually abused or assaulted.

I want to see all people respect each other as human beings. See, for me, feminism is not about women getting power, its about all people having an even playing field - its a human right. Its not about a matriarchy, but about all people being accepted in this world.

*end soapbox rant*

[suchid.livejournal.com]

The majority of feminism that is practiced today, in my view, is an excuse for women to hide behind having a lack of self confidence and self esteem (at the hands of 'men') so that they can denigrate men and do exactly what they slam men for having done to them.

True Feminism, equality for their gender, has happened. It's not totally happened, but then the world and society is still changing and not all women agree with feminism. (Hell, I've a friend who thinks women of the late 19th and early 20th century were the dumbest women on earth for pushing for independence and equality in the work place.)

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

Not saying you're waving a red flag, just that I think what I consider to be feminism is. It's also a fiendishly clever piece of imagery, see, what with comparing it to communism.

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

The fight has largely been won but there are still elements of discrimination against women about the place, even where it is not 'official' women come up against mysogonist, outdated attitudes which really need to be eliminated before we are truly a society of equals. One area I've noticed is some peoples attitudes to pregnancy and children. Suddenly you are not as competent or as reliable as before according to some people, even worse you should be staying at home where you belong instead of going out to work, apparently it can be very selfish to work while a mother of small children.

I think of feminism as being able to expect an equal respect to men. The same pay for the same work, the same opportunities with the same aptitude and an acknowledgement that women are not inferior.

I like chivalry but then again I think manners in anyone should be encouraged, I also think that men and women are sometimes more suited to different types of work such as physical labour, it is opportunity and respect that is important differences between the genders are fine after that point.

I think being girly or 'tarty' can be a feminists perogative. It is the perogative to be girly without people being able to officially judge your abilities or competence on it. A girl should be able to work down the street in a short skirt with people having respect for her choice in how she dresses, non of this'she's asking to be raped' nonsense.

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

I'm a feminist because I believe in the equality of men and women and would like to live in a world where discrimination on the basis of gender does not exist. Sadly, I don't think we're there yet.

I don't object to people opening doors for me because I open doors for people too. Male, female or aardvark.

I don't think feminism has anything to do with how you dress.

Hang on, I'll go find an essay on this I was shown a while back and liked a lot - http://www.tomatonation.com/youare.shtml

Absolutely

[vilenspotens.livejournal.com]

It is the old saying "Do unto others as you would have done to yourself" and so on, just a variation.

Be a cute ickle girlie and be treated like a cute ickle girlie. Be a man-hating dyke and get treated like a man-hating dyke. Don't then moan because someone is treating you in a manner in which you purport yourself.

At then end of the day it comes down to being yourself. Whatever you show to people, whatever you do to people, will be reflected in the way that others regard and treat you. No point crying over a treatment if that's what you were lookking for.


And yes, I am manly dammit. One day I will be able to say "Get back in the kitchen, wench" eithout problems.

Aside from the problem of it being my kitchen, that is. And my cooking utensils. And my creations.

Oh dammit, get back on the sofa in front of the TV where you belong. I'll bring you wine in a minute...

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

But what about the dangers that apply to men? It was pointed out to me lately that a guy on his own is actually statistically more likely to be attacked than a woman - men get beaten up for wearing the wrong football shirt, for dressing strangely, for being in the wrong place when a bunch of drunk thugs come out of the pub. Men are often viewed as 'acceptable' for other men to have a go at when they might be more gentle with women.

Yes, there is violence against women and it is horrific and bad, but there are things in this world which women are entirely immune from, by virtue of being women. I have one friend who got attacked in the street when he went back to his hometown for Christmas. He was attacked by a couple of guys he knew at school who had heard that he was gay. A female friend of mine came out at around the same time, and I think got more leering than anything else - she wasn't seen as threatening and therefore in need to bashing than anything else.

Heck, lesbianism wasn't even a crime while sodomy carried a prison sentence!

How do those evils balance out?

Again - apologies if I am offending. This is entirely an entry designed to make me think and work through some fairly contraditory views in my head.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Aristophanes once commented that "if you make a woman your equal then she becomes your superior" for exactly the opening doors/paying for dates reasons above.
Personally I open doors and pay for dates even when I'm with a feminist because I hope to have sex again sometime before I die, and I don't think the debate needs any more comment than that :)

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

I want legal and financial equality. I also want our differences to be appreciated and different allowances made for us.

I want to occassionally be deferred to on random technical things, because that will make me feel good. At the same time I will be more polite to women, and hold more doors open for them.

Playing the girl card is a tough one. If someone happens to say "Oh, Ben, I cannot possibly understand this screw top jar, could you open it for me, you big manly, man?" then I will open the jar for him or her, but will assume (regardless of gender) that they are a bit useless in the jar opening stakes from then on, and treat them accordinly. he or she cannot later say "you are opressing me by not letting me open jars".

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Ooooh...I like that. It is rather nice.

Again, same question I asked Lee, is there some kind of behaviour which would make you question whether someone has the right to demand equality or describe herself as a 'feminist'? For example, a girl who won't even bother taking her purse on a date, because it's the man's place to pay (I read that example in a US magazine - it was an article on whether it was reasonable or not. The end conclusion was that you should take your purse, just in case, but if a man didn't pay on the first date then you shouldn't bother with a second), or the girl who turns up to larps with a corset and basically role plays 'the girl with breasts who expects victory through cleavage', or even the housewife who hasn't worked since she got married...?

Are there any forms of behaviour which would seem to firmly leave someone in the Not-Feminist Camp?

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

If you ever hear me saying the words 'oh Ben, you big manly man' to you then...

...then...

Sorry. I'm getting a fit of the giggles at the moment. I don't know why. I think it's the phrasing.

Ahem.

Erm.

I do think you're manly. Honest. Not sure why I'm losing it...

*explodes in giggles again*

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

Quite a few employers these days offer paternity leave, which, all things considered, seems to be the fairest way to handle the issue. Doubly so if you factor in how it's supporting men playing a greater hand in looking after their newborns.

[silver-blue.livejournal.com]

And it's the gentlemanly thing to do, anyway. :)

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree with that totally! I really do believe in paternity leave, but it's still quite a new thing, and I don't believe is a legal requirement as maternity leave is. Or am I wrong in that?

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

I thought I was pretty good with English, but you just used a word I don't know.

[silver-blue.livejournal.com]

Yes, I suppose the icon does give it away - a cad rather than a gentleman, and therefore one who opens doors for women because of ulterior motives. ;)

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

See, that's sexism in action. Were I to bring into doubt some woman's femininity then I'd be slapped, but nooooo we can cast apersions all over my masculinity. *sniff*

:p

Incidentally the Manly Ferry in Sydney is an infamous gay pick up place.

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

I didn't actually think it was a legal requirement, but a bit of googling proves me wrong (http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/individual/paternity-pl514.htm).