In defense of the Disney Princess

[annwfyn]

Now, as some of you may know, I am rather fond of Disney. This isn't because of any kind of childhood exposure to it - I think I saw my first Disney film in my teens, which one friend of mine said 'would explain the bitter and twisted thing' - it's just something I like. I find them cheerful, optimistic, and increasingly I think that as role models for little girls go, they are far better than anything produced by the Twilight franchise.

I mean, look at them.

First of all, contrary to popular belief, the Disney Princess isn't a passive creature, sitting around waiting for her Prince to come. Mulan saves China. Belle rejects the town heart throb and takes off to rescue her father, and eventually saves her Prince as well. Jasmine meets Aladdin whilst running away from the palace in search of freedom.

The Disney Princesses are, when you look at them, surprisingly active. Even Snow White and Sleeping Beauty are brisk, motivated and organizing people who have a lot of friends around them. Well, small woodland creatures anyway.

Secondly, looking at the Disney Princesses, I'm always impressed by how much of a diverse bunch they actually are. OK, so none of them are exactly podgy, but then neither do any normal kids films. They are, however, a mixture of ethnicities, personality types, and even hair colours. As a little girl, I was raised on books with an endless stream of identikit blondes. The Disney Princesses are Black, White, Asian, Native American.

Thirdly, I, very sadly, quite like the morality of the Disney Princess world. OK, so it's got its flaws, but so do most mainstream films and I quite like the basic driving message that it's good to be cheerful, to be positive, to be nice to other people and to try and change things.

And finally, honestly, I think the messages about love and romance that Disney send out are a lot better than most films.

The Spirit, for example, which was one of 2009's superhero films, has a love story with the central message of 'heroes sometimes don't know what they want, will screw around with the sexy femme fatale, and never tell you anything. But remember, he's a hero!'. Tammy Wynette could be singing along to that.

Mulan, on the other hand, has a love story which says 'you can be a tough and really not very feminine girl, and still get the guy. Although he's going to be pissed when he finds out you've lied to him and it might involve you doing something to make it up to him'.

Twilight, as we all know, is an anthemn to abusive relationships. Beauty and the Beast is all about a relationship where the big, powerful, monsterous hero has to learn to control his temper, treat his girl well, and respect her, and in return he is saved by her.

I know there are holes in the whole Disney mythos - heterocentric as all hell, beauty is linked with goodness, and there is always a love story, but for all that, I think they are one of the more surprisingly cheerful set of Hollywood morality plays out there. And I'd certainly rather have Belle as a role model than Hannah Montana.

Comments

[faerierhona.livejournal.com]

Hmm - I disagree with an awful lots of that, but I'll concentrate on three main things:

1. Happiness can only be found by finding a man. In fact, without that man riding to your rescue you end up asleep forever, trapped by bad guys, abused by step mothers etc etc. One exception is Beauty and the Beast, where she saves him. I know this is common in fairy tales, but I consider that no excuse.

2. The things they tend to be good at are "traditionally female" - sewing, cleaning, cooking...

There is not one Disney Princess I would be happy with as a role model, I find them all weak, insipid, usually powerless, and their abuse turned into a romance

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

1) Beauty and the Beast, yes, but also Mulan (she saves China, is lauded by the Emperor, and then gets a slightly sheepish looking Chinese General turning up at her place to court her afterwards. She also saves his life there. There's also Giselle, in Enchanted, who goes toe to toe with a dragon for her Prince, after figuring out a bunch of stuff that she wants, Meg in Hercules does take a fairly proactive role, and does sort Hercules out, even if she dies in the process and later needs to be rescued (but I can cope with a hero and heroine rescuing each other), Jasmine is kidnapped by Jafar, but works with Aladdin to outwit and defeat him.

They aren't ideal, and the entire franchise is very keen on getting a Prince at the end, but I think the princesses are a lot more proactive than a last number of other female characters!

2) Accepted on the traditional cooking and cleaning. I guess that's not something that bothers me quite so much.

I don't think they are powerless - I think that's the main area where we differ. Or maybe we're just focussing on different figures. My two favourites are Belle and Mulan, with probably Meg from Hercules coming in third place. None of them feel, to me, as if they are just dolls in any way, shape or form.

Actually, Jasmine and Ariel rock as well. Both of them are less overtly kick ass, but both have dreams, desires and do go out and chase them pretty forcefully.

[faerierhona.livejournal.com]

I did forget Mulan, yes, she's so very different. Jasmine still mainly wait for Aladdin to do things, she was a very slight improvement on the rest.

But doesn't it bother you that most of the dreams and desires are to find a man and have him look after you forever? I'm not saying that's a bad thing per se, but where's the dreams of ruling in your own right, controlling your own life, all the things we should be teaching little girls they can be? If we had 1 in 10 princesses be nothing more than a housewife in waiting that would be better, but they almost *all* seem to be.

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

Out of interest, how many women *are* there in the world who don't want to find someone to love and take care of them? I can't think of a single one. Being taken care of is not the same thing as losing your independence.

[faerierhona.livejournal.com]

Er, me, thank you, and I can name plenty more who may want to find love but would tell the White Knight to fuck off thanks! . I do not need anyone to take care of me, I can and do take perfectly good care of myself. I don't need rescuing, I am not so stupid as to keep taking stuff off strangers when I know they are trying to kill me (Snow White), if my stepmother is that abusive I'll ask for a job and a new home rather than pretty dresses (Cinderella), and would rather find a man who talks to me than just likes how I look (most of them), if I am ever rescued that doesn't mean I have to love him or marry him (most of them).

Sure Jasmine was better, Mulan was *much* better (as I said I forgot her), Enchanted was the best as Disney took the piss out of its own insipid girls and got one to grow a backbone

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. My point is that most people (male or female) want to be part of a loving relationship with a partner who wants to take care of them. I don't actually see any sign in the later films that the princesses will become any less independent minded just because they got married.

Snow White and Cinderella are very old films based on even older stories. They are, I admit, bad feminist models. Gotta say though - if I was given the choice of Snow White or Twilight's Bella as a role model, I'd opt for Snow White every time. She makes the best out of a bad situation, Bella actively chooses the bad option.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree with this so strongly. This whole post partly came out of my horror at Bella in Twilight. I cannot think of a single Disney Princess who isn't a vast improvement on that - even Sleeping Beauty, who spends half her time unconscious.

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

Though there are days when I'd quite like to spend half my time unconscious ;-)

[badgersandjam.livejournal.com]

I do.

[faerierhona.livejournal.com]

Oh don't get me started on my Twilight rant - I can rant without drawing breath for half an hour on how much I hate everything about those. Though if you're going to talk about setting and context, then in the author's eyes it is *all* terribly romantic and the right choice, of course.

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

Setting and context aren't dependent on the author, they're dependent on the time in which the story is set. A story set in pre-industrial Europe will have lots of women doing domestic chores, and that's all fine and dandy because that's what happened. A story set in modern America has far more female archetypes to draw on, so gets considerably less sympathy for picking a bad one.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

This. Thank you.

When I was younger I wanted to be rescued and I wanted love to solve all my issues with unhappiness.

While I still miss someone I was in a relationship with dearly (it's a long story) he understands that I want space, and lots of it. I think if I'm ever in a relationship again I would want my own flat or house and not want to share.

Mind you, in a roundabout way I am probably agreeing with both of you, only my definition of being "cared for" means the guy will respect me enough to have my own independence.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

But they aren't.

Belle wants to get out of a small provincial town, and read books.

Mulan wants to protect her family and make them proud.

Jasmine wants to get out of the palace and see what the world is like outside. She actively rejects Aladdin at first when he tries to pose as a Prince, come to dazzle her, and only responds when he offers her his flying carpet and the option of freedom. And I find that romantic.

Ariel does pretty much just want Eric - she falls in love with him and that's her journey - but she's pretty proactive about that. She is the one who makes her bargains, goes to land, chases.

Pocohontas actually ends with the hero going back to England and the hero and heroine saying their goodbyes. Admittedly, that film has another pile of issues to do with their depictions of Native Americans in general, but it doesn't end with happily ever after.

I do accept that these films are not the pinacle of feminist enlightenment, but I think they are a lot more positive than a lot of people give them credit for. They do have romances in them, but then, most little girls do want a story with a romance in it. I know that when I was a little girl, I really did.

[rebel-wulf.livejournal.com]

Am i gonna look weird for saying my favourite disney 'Princess' was Nala? :P

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

The Lion King? She rocked, but was overshadowed by Scar, who is a god amongst villains.

[sl4irl.livejournal.com]

Nala is the sexiest Disney character. This is a well established fact.

[rebel-wulf.livejournal.com]

I dunno, Tia Dalma's pretty hot until she opens her mouth...

[moomin-puffin.livejournal.com]

Belle and Mulan are my favourite Disney heroines.
I like Disney movies and there are a lot of fairy tales that I love too. I wouldn't necessarily want to live what happens in them but I do enjoy them.
I am aware of a lack of feminist principles running through a lot of fairy tales (and a lot of stories in general if we are totally honest) but I still read them to Anwen and let her watch them in movies. My solution (which I hope is effective) is to talk to her about the difference between fantasy characters and real life, also to mix in with more feminist friendly type stories such as 'The Paper Bag Princess'

[moomin-puffin.livejournal.com]

We're taking Anwen to Disneyland Paris in April and she will probably want to meet the Princesses.
If she was an overwhelming girly girl with everything being about Princesses and Barbie I may be trying to rein it in a bit but the truth is that her favourite television show is Ben 10 (something marketed at boys) and she loves the Spiderwick Chronicles and Harry Potter. She loves girly things, she loves dancing in silver shoes, unicorns and fairies but she also loves art and climbing all over things, pretending to be a vet and pretending to be a pirate. I like the balance :)

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with annwfyn.

1) There are several examples of heroines who are perfectly happy without a man. Snow White (un-reconstructed as she may be) is quite happy as a housekeeper. In Beauty and the Beast she actually rejects the first man who comes along. I'd argue that the message is 'falling in love makes happiness complete'. Yes, it would be nice if there was a homosexual relationship but until mainstream media stops treating homosexuality as unusual you can hardly expect Disney to lead the charge.

2) Sewing, cleaning, cooking, reading, riding horses, fighting monsters... Disney has adapted over the years and the later heroines are far more proactive and feisty than the earlier ones. Is it really such a bad thing to suggest that being clean and tidy is a life skill? Not to mention the fact that the majority of Disney movies are set in historical-fantasy land. Women in history were the ones lumbered with domestic chores.

The overriding message of Disney Princesses is that hard work, beauty and a little bit of luck can get you anything. I might take issue with that second one, but it's not a bad message overall.

[faerierhona.livejournal.com]

1. Wow - as a housekeeper for 7 men rather than 1. That's an appealing strong woman concept.

2. Name me lifeskills (actual real life skills) most of the princesses have that are not housework. Setting is irrelevant, if it's a fantasy, rewrite it.

The overriding message I see is that when things go wrongm you'd better be pretty and good at housework, or you may well stay in thast bad situation forever

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

I think this is something we'll have to agree to disagree on. I don't think setting is irrelevant - what's the point in making a film based on a fairy tale if you proceed to ignore the plot?
As for life skills - thinking for yourself, courage in your convictions, staying positive in a bad situation and the ability to manipulate men are valid life skills.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

the ability to manipulate men

Am I misunderstanding the context of this? Because it doesn't seem like a life skill to me.

[melsner.livejournal.com]

Looking at the comments, I think I see patterns of where the biggest schism are...

Those who think that Disney women are bad role models mostly focus on movies that came out before the Little Mermaid. Those who like them as role models mostly look at the Little Mermaid and after.

Also, I think Wildrogue pointed out that these are all romantic movies. So yes, a man and woman are always going to end up together at the end, which may seem like it's saying, "You can't be happy otherwise!" But I expect that from romantic movies.

The other key word for me is "Princess." Most of them are actual princesses in their world. I don't expect them to have an awful lot of skills or driving ambition. I don't expect Jasmine and Ariel to be doctors or mechanics. Mulan was not actually a Princess: she was determined to be as much a warrior as any man. Bella was basically a commoner and enjoyed learning. In a way, some of the movies say more about Class than it does Gender...

[blane-firewing.livejournal.com]

Hmm, this is a tricky one. I shall admit that there are Disney films that I really like. I must admit that I love Beauty and the Beast, a lot of that is because it is one of the few films where it emphasises personality rather than looks in regards to attraction.

On the other hand I do get a lot of Rhona's points as well, few of the characters are decent role models and they generally reinforce that it is better to be wealthy and pretty than anything else. I still like a lot of the films though because they are fun, I try not to take them too seriously in many ways. At least most of them don't scream and faint when see a monster, which is an improvement from some things out there.

Well if I had a point I think I have rambled past it. I suppose I am saying that I can see both view points. There are some good things in some Disney films which I appreciate, but they are not a pinnacle of female emancipation, but then they aren't really intended to be.

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

I think Mulan and Belle are awesome, strong characters.

Ariel makes me cringe though.

[pmp.livejournal.com]

To look at things from another perspective here, I would vastly prefer a Disney princess archtype over the vapid role presented by Bella.

Maybe I'm not the best person to comment, given my own relationship fell apart because of my weakness, but I can't help but think that it's vastly preferable to have a strong partner who choses to share herself over someone who simply gives up and goes along with a bad situation.

[kathminchin.livejournal.com]

Snow White – 1937

Pre World War 2. Women had just got the vote; mainly thanks to their actions during the Great War. In spite of this a woman’s place was very much in the home.

Also, this was a depression. The films being made at this time were very much “feel good”’ “everything will turn out ok” films.

Cinderella – 1950

Again, just post a world war; during a depression. Again a classic fairy tale of true love will conquer. Although women during this period were starting very much to look for a life outside the home; main stream society hadn’t quite grasped this.

1959 – Sleeping Beauty

This is in my opinion where female characters start getting stronger; even though in this case the female strength is the villainess of the piece Maleficent. However as a point Aurora and Philip meet and fall in love before Aurora knows she’s a princess. It’s a classic misunderstanding tale; but the Prince does go up against his father because he’s in love with a peasant girl.

Robin Hood – 1973

Is it worrying that one of the strongest versions of Maid Marion was a talking fox?

The Rescuers – 1977

Alright, it’s a bunch of mice and a chid. But the leader of the Rescue effort is the wonderful Miss Bianca; the child is the feisty Penny and even the villain of the piece is the villainess Medusa. Rather than “men will make it all ok” the story is more “team work will make it all ok,” which is not a bad message.

The Little Mermaid – 1989

Based on a tale written in the 1830s; let’s face it we were going to have “girl needs boy.” But Ariel’s quite proactive in getting her man. And it’s from the 1980s – in order to get what you want you have to go get it was a lesson being preached through the decade.

Beauty and the Beast – 1991

I remember watching this for the first time and being stunned that the heroine wasn’t blonde; and didn’t dress in pink. As people have pointed out, she refused to marry the man who wanted her to be a little lady at home; she had the Beast under her thumb and she rescued him from the rest of the town.

Aladdin – 1992

Hey look; it’s a cartoon where none of the characters are Caucasian! I admit that she’s not one of my favourite characters; but you can still see how the studio is developing its portrayal of characters.

Pocahontas – 1995

Ok, leave all knowledge of history out of the cinema; but I liked the fact that she was a strong woman who wasn’t afraid to turn round and tell the all blonde American hero that he was wrong.

Hercules – 1997

Another leave a knowledge of the myths outside the cinema; but Meg was so much fun and so sarcastic.

Mulan – 1998

Non- Caucasian; saves China in spite of society’s expectations; Mulan is such a huge step from Snow White.

The Incredibles – 2004

Mom comes and saves Dad; even if Frozone’s wife seemed to be the archetypical bossy woman. And the designer was right about the cloak.

Enchanted – 2007

A caricature of the classic Cinderella story; with all of the female characters being strong and capable.

1937 – 2007 is 70 years during which society has changed immensely. And whilst I would agree that we should be looking to Disney to have stories and characters that reflect the current viewpoints and times; we can hardy criticise them for doing this exact thing in the past.

On the other hand Twilight doesn't have either the excuse "it was written in the 1920s originally" or "it's set in Victorian Age."

[suave-steve.livejournal.com]

The strongest version of Marian is Audrey Hepburn in Robin and Marian actually :P

[kathminchin.livejournal.com]

I did say "one of" not "the absolute strongest."

And you're right, Audrey was fantastic. As was Mr Connery.

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

Surely the strongest was Marian from "Maid Marian and her Merry Men"? Cannot recall any of the folk in it mind!

[moomin-puffin.livejournal.com]

I loved that programme

[gothicmissy.livejournal.com]

I've really enjoyed reading this post and the comments.

I think there are certainly worse role models out there for young girls. Bella from Twilight definitely being up there. I find her cloying and docile hero worship of Edward irritating beyond belief.

With regards to the Disney princesses, I tend to agree with a lot of your points, and also, I know when I was a young girl, it was the fantasy and happy endings that I really bought into. In fact, I still do.

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with wanting to disappear into an escapist fantasy for a while, and yeah, while the princesses might not be all round great role models, there are some good messages in there.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

I think that saying "Disney is better than Twilight" is like saying "Cyanide is better than arsenic". The only Female characters I don't despise are the evil ones and the animals.

[emma7783.livejournal.com]

Just what I was thinking. All because they are better than Twilight does not make them good. I still don't think they are positive rolemodels for children and people in 2009. Some of the older stories were steps forward decades ago but in todays world they are painfully mysoginstic. I won't even start on the creepy 'He looked at her, knowing nothing about her and fell in love because she was so beautiful' angle some take.
I guess for me I see the majority of them as out dated, and useful only in a social history context. Not to be shown to little children as something to aspire to. The same way I wouldn't make children watch Jolsen movies unless it was to educate them about racisim.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I mentioned Twilight because it's what I've been seeing a lot of posters lately and it's floating through my mind.

Other non-Disney YA heroines who are very popular, however:

Megan Fox from Transformers. I can't remember her char's name. This is because she isn't a person. She is a sex object and trophy for the male hero. That is an encouraging thing to teach girls.

Maggie Gyllenhaal/Katie Holmes from Batman Begins/The Dark Knight. She gets to look anguished, well meaning and eventually dead. She does nothing and is considerably more passive than even Aurora from Sleeping Beauty.

Spiderman 3. What does Mary Jane do except cry at Spidey because her career isn't working? And then she gets kidnapped and saved, so forgives him.

Those are just off the top of my head. I think what I'm trying to say is that Twilight isn't a one off. It's part of a wider part of awful female role models that are out there, and within that context the Disney Princesses aren't the worst, and I think actually offer a surprisingly positive set of messages when you look at a lot of them.

[adze.livejournal.com]

Megan Fox from Transformers. I can't remember her char's name. This is because she isn't a person. She is a sex object and trophy for the male hero. That is an encouraging thing to teach girls.

That's somewhat improved in the second movie, in that she's much more independent, and vastly more useful (for want of a better phrase).

[emma7783.livejournal.com]

I think most people agree that disney is less evil in some regards than other mysoginistic movies that objectify and opress women.
I think people are just against the bad logic that is 'there are worse movies out there so lets pick on them instead'. Movies shown to children do alot to shape there world view at a young age subconsiously or conciously. I don't think they Disney view is healthy, nor is there enough merit behind it's positive messages (which yes, there are some) to cancel out some of the more sinister ones.

As an adult I like to watch them as a bit of escapeisim, the songs are catchy and they have happy endings where bad people are punished and good people live well. But when I'm watching them I know that the images portrayed do not reflect real life, infact they show a dreadfully unequal world where men, people with power and life in general treat girls terribly. With the promise that if they don't complain, take it all in thier stride, grow up to be externally beautiful and very lucky a prince will come (or a man in a position of power will listen to them - intially because they are beautiful - then maybe because they are clever) and fight her battle or give her the help to fight it (because she couldn't do it on her own given her upbringing).
When I was younger those movies made me feel horrid. I was a foot taler than most (all the girls are shorter than the men, they always tilt the girls chin up for the kiss) and ungraceful (dyspraxic). I honestly thought that those things made me unlovable. I hated myself for not being like the 'role models' I was brought up watching. I honestly believed for years that 'metaphorical Princes' didn't come for women like me.

It was all very sad. I'm ashamed to think of it now. So yes, I think I'm trying to say being the better of two evils does not redeem them but I do still like the catchy songs :-)

le sigh

[reindeerflotila.livejournal.com]

Ultimately it's all about choice, as the choices for women equalise with those for men, films slowly catch up and the themes lose some of the misogny. I also have to say that the universe has all sorts in it, and if you are a woman who is perfectly content with her choices and if those choices involve cooking, cleaning or anything else declared as Femine Specific skills, then she shouldn't be villifed or considered poorly educated in the field of equality. By reaffirming the classic interpretation of 'housework' as female, all you achieve is to further denigrate the women doing such activities, whilst simultaneoulsy increasing the liklihood of men being reluctant to do so. See how that keeps women 'in the kitchen'? Incidentally, I am wildly generalising on the point of men, I myself probably do the majority of the 'housework' and frankly, the whole knock-on effect of being considered feminised pisses me off. It's just housework. And yes I am also aware that one of the reasons behind male reluctance is because the perception is that to be feminine = weak. Again I would say this is actually underpinned by CHOICE. If it is your CHOICE to do these activities, that is not weakness.

Choices. If see a film in which a female character is cooking, I would like to see the next scene in which a man is vacuuming. These are after all, tasks that keep your home healthy, your mind centred and provide exercise.

Disney is in the business of selling romance. It sells escapist dreams. It sells light entertainment and it provides stories that as has been said, are generally positive and as I think the original point was, Disney is considerably easier to find positivity within, than several of the examples given.


I totally agree that in films the extremely irritating propensity is to have females as adjuncts to male characters, or if independant, a worrying tendancy is to cast them in the villain role. This blows goats.

Case in point is the delightfully devastaty 2012. Love the Doom, however the women get stuff-all in terms of role. Though the Queen is in it briefly.

oooh another animated film recently with a relatively decent female character is http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0165982/ .

Re: le sigh

[sl4irl.livejournal.com]

"Choices. If see a film in which a female character is cooking, I would like to see the next scene in which a man is vacuuming. These are after all, tasks that keep your home healthy, your mind centred and provide exercise."

I suppose this comes down to a matter of whether you want reality depicted as it stands, or an ideal presented.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

I quite like the basic driving message that it's good to be cheerful, to be positive, to be nice to other people and to try and change things.

From my limited knowledge of Twilight (based on reviews and a few extracts from the books), I agree with you that the Disney Princesses are probably less bad role models than any woman in that franchise, but that's not setting the bar very high. Generally, I agree with faerierhona, and specifically as a message to girls, I actively dislike the "be cheerful and nice" message, because it reinforces the training girls receive to display only those emotions that are acceptably ladylike.