Cultural appropriation and why I increasingly think it should never be discussed on the internet

[annwfyn]

So, I've just been reading racism_101, which is a brand new shiny anti-racism community, designed to be a little more basic than debunkingwhite and was mostly formed in the aftermath of the huge Sci-Fi online drama, Racefail '09, which I know very little about for various reasons* and as such has, I think, a lot of talking to do about the issues which came up there. As a result the entire community is this huge great pile of very earnest discussions about cultural appropriation and it's beginning to drive me nuts.

OK, first of all, I believe in cultural appropriation. I really do. I cringe when I see Gwen Stefani doing...well...anything. But especially wearing that damn bindi along with a bikini top and tight jeans. Those Japanese girls she pays to stand behind her and giggle these days also make me want to claw my own eyes out. Buying Native American spirituality for $17.99 online strikes me as deeply icky, and I do have total sympathy for anyone of any specific culture who wants to walk up to the outsider decked out in the trappings of their society and say "you know, you're really doing it wrong".

However, I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that cultural appropriation is something which really shouldn't be discussed online.

Or rather, the theory should. Whilst writing this I just found the most fabulous essay online here, which I really liked, and I do think that the idea that cultural appropriation exists should, but what is happening on racism_101 quite a lot is this endless conversation about whether [insert complicated shade of grey issue] is cultural appropriation or not. And to my mind, that is really the kind of conversation you cannot helpfully have with strangers on the internet.

The main issue, from my point of view, is that 'culture' is not a monolithic solid entitity, any more than people are. 'Culture' is fluid, changing, infectious. It rubs off on you. People live in different places, children are born with mixed heritage, cultures impact on each other and interact with each other. There is cultural exchange as well as cultural appropriation. There is positive and valid cultural exchange as well.

Is it cultural appropriation for westerners to practice Buddhism? Ummm...it probably can be, but equally it probably often isn't. Either way, a bunch of earnest white people on an internet community are highly unlikely to be able to tell you whether you're sincere in your faith, if you're respectful in your practice, or (and mostly importantly) what the theological approach is to converts from a religious standpoint. I sincerely doubt that anyone in that community is a Buddhist theologian or teacher. All they can do is throw noise. Ditto for 90% of these conversations. Is it cultural appropriation if a white American couple give their kid a Japanese name? Maybe. What if they were living in Japan at the time and had lived there for many years? Maybe, but probably not. What if they had lived there for ten years, but had got home the week before? Who the hell knows? Some Japanese people might roll their eyes. Others probably won't care. Either way, it isn't an issue that can really helpfully be resolved by a bunch of random people online. It's something you need to think about for yourself.

I'm not saying that there isn't cultural appropriation. I think there is. I think there are lots of ways to be offensive about nicking someone's culture, but I also think that there are polite and respectful ways to interact with another culture, and that realistically, no one except you will really know which one you're doing.

I don't know if I'm right or wrong with my rules for me. I have them, and I should really talk about them here at some point. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not. I think some would call me overly earnest and PC and others would say I'm reeking white privilege and entitlement. But I think that's kinda the standard for me these days.

Anyway, that's my philosophical ramble for the day. I really need to run now as I have to get to the bank.

*I'm not a sci fi fan, I wasn't aware of it for ages, I became aware, I tried to read some of the links on rydra_wong's LJ and got very lost, very quickly, I didn't know who any of these people were, I gave up.

Comments

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

Looks like my previous comment vanished... hmm

Anyway, maybe I'm a terribly racist evil man, but can't cultural appropriation maybe bring us a little closer together some times? Especially some of the examples I see on the community - watching anime is cultural appropriation?

People like to take short cuts, and often the first steps into appreciating another culture might be the easy steps of wearing the same clothes and borrowing some of the more obvious beliefs...

I worry that these well meaning movements tend to create division as people become too afraid to explore another culture without being tarred with the "appropriator" brush.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

There was a previous comment? I've seen nothing. Did LJ eat it?

I see where you're coming from re: cultural appropriation, but I think that the original culture is not obliged to give of itself, in order that a dominant and often quite aggressive culture is able to 'appreciate' it. For example, I think the indigenous people of Australia aren't obliged to let white people climb Ayers Rock so that they can feel closer to appreciating aboriginal spirituality, for example? Or - a better example - I know some Asian women get irritated by white girls in bindis because they are basically deciding to get the exotic shiny points from wearing them, without having to take the crap that Asian women who wear those symbols often face, and I can totally see how that could be really annoying.

Having said that - yeah - I think some people are silly about it. I don't think watching anime is cultural appropriation - that stuff is produced commercially and distrubuted as widely as possible. I think some anime fans may buy into a whole subculture which is kinda peculiar (watches anime, cosplays, adds 'chan' randomly onto names, talks about moving to Japan, wears kimonos badly, is convinced they are spiritually Japanese based on said anime) and which is probably appropriative, but the basic act of watching publicly distributed film strikes me as pretty reasonable.

This of course, may be me being a bratty white princess over it all, and not seeing something, but I do generally think that people can easily go hideously overboard in their urge to be good when it comes to cultural appropriation.

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, the reaction I get from wearing kimono in Japan is almost overwhelmingly positive. I get giggled at occasionally, and tidied by little old ladies, but in general people seem pleased that I am having a go. I do try my best to get it right though, in terms of age appropriateness and style as well as putting the things on, and have been to kitsuke school intended for Japanese. I've been stopped by people in the street to say how pleased they are to see me wearing it. The only people that have given me the eyeball are blokes who I suspect would have given me the eyeball for existing anyway.

If I got basic stuff wrong like crossing it over the wrong way I suspect the reaction would be a lot different (the only people who have kimono crossed right over left are dead people).

I think the people who sue tattoo parlours because they get stuff like "fool" or "supermarket" tattooed on them deserve everything they get, though. Why get a tattoo you can't understand?

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I suspect it's a really different context in Japan. I used to get a similar response to you when I wore a sari in Nepal, and a salwar kameez in Sri Lanka, and I think I'd do both again.

The tattoo thing I totally agree with. I've always been amused by the story of one guy I knew who actually did get 'lemon fried chicken' tattooed on his arm. He said that he knew he was only getting a chinese character because he thought it looked cool, so why not get one that he definitely knew the meaning of, and really liked as well. Plus, lemon fried chicken was his favourite dish. It was insane, but had a certain honest charm.

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

But Uluru is a good example where you are asked not to climb it, that's not cultural appropriation to me, it's bloody walking over someone's sacred site.

maybe, as with the bindi, you just need to try and learn something about what you are doing before you do it, and then listen when someone tells you that you're doing it wrong. But the act of trying to understand and get involved with other cultures should not be discouraged.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're entirely wrong. I think the attitude is what matters - listen, learn, and be respectful is important. Assuming you've got the right to do it just coz is where it goes wrong.

Re: sacred sites - there was the most obnoxious post a while ago on an atheist LJ community with someone bitching about how the Nepalese government were blocking his human rights - his right to free movement - by saying he couldn't climb a sacred mountain. It was astonishingly obnoxious!

[adze.livejournal.com]

So, wearing things you like, that come from another culture, is somehow a bad thing?

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

It can be, potentially. It can upset people and offend people, for fairly good reasons, and I tend to think that being respectful and not offending people is a good thing, right?

[adze.livejournal.com]

It is, but I'm trying to work out where the line comes. From my point of view, you set the line where you want it to be, and wear what you want until someone complains.

The implication I have from what you seem to be saying is that other people choose the line for you.

For example, I have a cotton chinese jacket lurking around somewhere. I shouldn't wear that, and you shouldn't wear your haori, in case we end up offending someone?

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Some people would say so, yes.

I think my whole point was that I don't think hard and fast rules work. I do agonize slightly about my haori. For the moment, I'll keep wearing it because it's pretty and I really love it, but if I thought I was offending anyone, even slightly, I'd stop.

Re: letting other people decide - no - I think you should decide. I do, however, think sometimes it's not reasonable to wait until someone complains before you do anything. Some things are just tacky, whether anyone's got round to complaining or not, and sensitivity is not a bad thing to display, unprompted, on occasion.

[adze.livejournal.com]

While I agree with your last point, I think that if you live your entire life based on whether your actions will offend someone, then you'd never get anything done.

As a side point, why should we show this level of cultural sensitivity, when other cultures don't seem to show it in return? If everyone was showing the same level of cultural sensitivity, that'd be great, but I don't think they are.

Lastly, moving away from 'some bits of it are offensive', is cultural appropriation really a bad thing? If we're becoming more like other cultures, and they're becoming more like us, isn't that going to have the end result of bringing down borders & divisions between people, and working against what is something of an isolationist society? Obviously, I'm not talking about fashion here, but cultural appropriation on something of a larger scale...

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Neill, with all due respect, you're talking complete shite!

Other cultures don't show us the same respect? Can I have some examples of this - preferably some which aren't Daily Mail fearmongering stories about those horrible muslims who insist on wearing the headscarf? When did you actually feel pressured into not displaying your culture or heritage in England? When did you feel discriminated against because of your culture? Which parts of your culture do you not feel able to put on display?

Re: cultural appropriation - I think you're only looking at it from a white European point of view. You're assuming that a good society is one in which everything in it is accessible to you. I tend to think that everyone, on a personal level, and on a larger scale, is entitled to have things which make them special and different and are private to them.

Totally sliding into geek talk - a while ago you decided that garou moots would not be open to anyone other than garou, with the exception of specific individuals who you felt had proved themselves respectful of garou traditions and the garou way of doing things. Do you think that was a reasonable thing to do, on an OOC level? If you were a werewolf in real life, would you still think that's something you'd do?

[adze.livejournal.com]

I don't think the gaming stuff is relevant. And you know how much I agonised over that choice, based on the fairness to the people who want to play the game. If I was a religious zealot with a short temper and the ability to kill anyone who was bothering me, then things would be a lot different. I'm not, so I fail to see how it's relevant.

My point on the rest of it was that there are things I find offensive that people from other cultures do. (There are also things that people from my culture do that I find offensive, but that's not the point.) Your point seems to be saying that I'm the one who should make sure that I'm not offending anyone - not that everyone should be trying to make sure their actions aren't offensive to each other.

Re: cultural appropriation - Yes, I'm looking at it from a White European point of view. This is because I'm white, and European, and this is unlikely to change, nor is it something I think I should feel bad about. I think some level of cultural appropriation is a good thing - without it, this country wouldn't really exist, after all. Yes, people should be able to have their own special private things, but isn't some level of it a good thing?

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Well, it is relevent because your in game reasoning for it at the time was 'some things are meant to be special and sacred to garou, not everyone who comes along, and half the time doesn't even respect them'. And if you take away the word 'garou' and replace it with something in real life, then you're entirely getting to the heart of why I think it is reasonable that some things are off limits to some people.

Some things are special, and those aren't just places or rituals. For example, I think it's not unreasonable for a Buddhist to say 'my statue of Buddha is sacred. I don't like it when random white people put up little pseudo-Buddhist shrines in their homes, just because they look cool, and then smoke grass whilst resting their feet on Buddha's shoulder.' I don't think it's unreasonable for a Native American to say 'actually - that dreamcatcher has a special meaning to me, and I would rather that symbol was reserved for those it does have meaning for, rather than have it diluted into a fashion statement'.

Or, to simplify even more, if something is special and sacred to a group of people, surely it should be theirs, and not just be used casually by people who have no basic level of respect?

[adze.livejournal.com]

My in game reasoning was that, I'll admit, but it was also to cover the OOC feeling that it wasn't feeling like a Garou game anymore, because of the variety of wild and wacky things that were turning up.

Also, I've not been talking about religion, I've been talking about culture, and in my head, there's a difference.

Yes, I agree with your last point, but I don't think it's what we've been arguing about over the last few posts.

Trying to explain...

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I think it all tends to come together.

OK.

Examples of stuff I've seen which I think are cultural appropriation and why:

1) People using the symbols of other religions as a fashion statement.

This happens a lot - buddha statues, thangkas, Hindu gods being appropriated for jewellery, statues, home decor, hippy names, Native American spirituality being sold all over the place - and it's not really very nice.

2) People using bits of other people's religion in their own to make up their own Cool Kid Modern Faith. This is also annoying, and happens a lot in modern Pagan and Wiccan traditions.

3) People using bits of other people's culture for 'cool points' whilst not having to take the disadvantages of that culture and not really understanding it.

For example, wearing the shalwar kameez in public is quite a big decision for a lot of Asian girls - people will treat them differently, make assumptions about them etc. A white girl wears it, people just assume she's playing dress up. That's kinda unfair and quite rude.

It's turning someone's life - someone's culture - into a trinket for a white european person to play with, and that's bad form, I think.

[adze.livejournal.com]

1) Who's doing the selling? How much of it comes from people from those religions trying to make a profit by selling it to anyone who will buy it?

In my experience, the vast majority of places I've seen selling religious symbols as non-religious items have been run by people who appear to be from the appropriate culture. At which point, it appears to be something acceptable, as that culture appears to support the trade.

2 & 3) Yep, fair enough. But again, many parts of (3) appear to be acceptable, because things like the shalwar kameez are actually available to anyone.

And why is it such a big deal that it's a trinket for a white european person, specifically? If the people doing this were from other cultures, would it be that big a deal, or is it somehow worse, because it's white europeans doing it?

[ginasketch.livejournal.com]

I think we are all guilty of cultural appropriation to some degree. I think what matters is the level it's used at. Once, while in Guatemala I saw a white tourist wearing the traditional Mayan dress. Mayan women were glaring at her. And I thought it was a pretty disrespectful thing to do.

I have Mayan ancestory, but I'd never wear that garment because I didn't grow up immersed in that culture. That's not to say if I were Larping as a Mayan character I wouldn't perhaps integrate certain things into my character's look, but walking down the street in Guatemala like that? Nope.

On a side note, you gotta laugh at the people who tattoo a chinese symbol on their arm and then find out that it says something like "arse."

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

Re: cultural appropriation - I think you're only looking at it from a white European point of view. You're assuming that a good society is one in which everything in it is accessible to you. I tend to think that everyone, on a personal level, and on a larger scale, is entitled to have things which make them special and different and are private to them.

I can see Neill's point here. Discussions on cultural appropriation seem to assume that we White Westerners have no culture in the first place. I've been told that directly by a drunken lady from Eastern Europe. But the difference to me is that our culture is based on sharing it as widely (and sometimes agressively) as possible, we're vigorously inclusive and therefore we kinda assume that we can also borrow from other cultures where we want to.

And we never, ever have a charge of cultural appropriation when someone in China wears a Superman t-shirt. Combine this with statements that you cannot be racist to a white person it feels awfully like one rule for "them" and one for "us".

Lots of bits muddled in this comment. I'll try to break it out later.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I think you're sort of wrong that we have no culture. We do. We're just very evangelical about our culture. Nevertheless, I'm aware that there are bits of my culture I prickle at when I see someone else using it.

For example, I'd pull faces at a Hindu wearing a rosary as a fashion statement, if I knew the person was a Hindu and wasn't interested in Christianity at all. I'd roll my eyes somewhat at someone of Chinese descent wearing a kilt, although since I did buy my Sri Lankan/German boyfriend a Welsh kilt for his birthday I probably shouldn't (he is sort of Welsh by adoption, maybe?). I also know quite a few Scots and Irish people who mutter darkly about Americans who think they are Irish - that is basically white people complaining about cultural appropriation.

I think you're right that we do aggressively and forcibly share our culture with other people. That doesn't mean that everyone is obliged to share theirs with us. That's a bit like me determindly dumping a coke on your desk and saying "OK. I'm leaving that there, whether you want it or not. By the way, I'm now taking your orange juice because I shared my drink with you. Don't complain!" It's just not very fair.

The power + prejudice argument will never end. To me, I think it gets as messy as it does because a lot of people don't make it clear that PoC can be prejudiced all the time. The difference between prejudice and racism is that prejudice is something that can only really happen between individuals. Racism is something built into a social structure with a lot more power behind it. I suspect that it maybe should have a different name instead of 'racism' which most people are brought up to believe is any kind of racial prejudice, but I do think there's a big difference between some random PoC calling me a honky (which no one has ever done, btw) and a system which says that you're less likely to go to university, more likely to end up in jail and have more trouble getting credit because of the colour of your skin.

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

I never said we have no culture, but some people think that we don't.

I think (like I said to Neill) that this is a conversation for face to face, not the internet, because the chance to cause offence her is way to high.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Probably. And it's all something that's dead mirky and complicated, and I think I'm the only person I know who thinks like this anyway.

Which is strange and peculiar, and variably makes me wonder if I'm crazy, or if everyone I hang out with is crazy.

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

I don't think you are crazy and can see where you have come from on each of those points. I think it's a case of where the cut-off is. If you imagine a spectrum from things in a culture that we barely care about (e.g. diet coke) to things that form part of our background and identity (e.g. clan tartan) up to the sacred (e.g. ST Paul's Cathedral) then everyone has different things on their spectrum and different cut-off points where borrowing is OK and where trampling on our heritage begins.

I think almost everyone agrees on the sacred and mundane ends of the spectrum, but it's that middle cultural identity stuff in there that gets tricky.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

a) I would tend to agree.

b) I think you'd be surprised about how many people don't agree on either the mundane or the sacred end of the spectrum!

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

OK, at the risk of your journal now displaying only one character per line (nice way to cut off long threads, btw); those people might need some re-neducation.

I believe that there is nothing wrong with eating Ramen noodles and sushi, but scratching "JTD Woz Ere" on a Shinto shrine is very, very wrong.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

There was this hideous hideous debate a while ago on some atheist community in which someone was ranting about how the stupid Nepalese government wouldn't let foreigners climb their sacred mountain and this was a violation of his human rights, or something. Right to free movement, maybe? And lots of people said 'but it's their sacred mountain' and this person said 'what? So their stupid sky daddy trumps my right to see beautiful things?'

Ummm...yes. Yes, it does.

Equally, I know some people are very earnest about not using anything that comes from another culture, which I also think doesn't work.

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

You know, ST Paul's Cathedral looks like it is a cathedral devoted to Paul the Story Teller.

Remember kids, capitalisation matters.

[evilwillow.livejournal.com]

The problem with discussing issues of 'race', 'culture' and 'ethnicity' in online discussions is that these terms are so fluid and sorting out which attributes are assigned to a specific ethnic group or culture and which they have subscribed to can change, sometimes radically, in a relatively short period of time.

When you add in personal choices and mixing of subcultures and throw in a few other identity choices from work, gender and social class, politics, art, music and religion then who is to say what is appropriated and what isn't?

We used to have a clear idea of what it meant to be 'british', can we really say what that is these days when our country is so much more multicultural than it used to be back in the 50's or 60's.

If there are people whose families were of black, asian or eastern european origins who are british citizens and they bring elements of their familial culture to their everyday lives, are they still being british?

As the world becomes increasingly interconnected, social definitions will need to continue to change as will implied ownership of culture.

My personal thoughts for this moment in time! Back to work for me :)

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

All I can think of is that year out sketch from Goodness Gracious Me, but my YouTube fu is failing....

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Oh! The English wife! I know the one.

http://tv.muxlim.com/video/lZozAPUe1AH/MUST-WATCH-VIDEO-Goodness-Gracious-Me-English-Wife/ - that one?

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

No, it's a pile of them going for a gap year in the UK, complete with Union Jack waistcoats :)

But that sketch is pretty funny, too. I love the Bollywood at the end.

But then I think Goodness Gracious Me is pretty awesome in the way it highlights racist assumptions by poking fun at them.

[sea-cucumber.livejournal.com]

I think this issue is so utterly complicated and full of trickyness that it is practically impossible to take any viewpoint on it whatsoever without offending someone.

As long as you are sincere and respectful about what you're doing, there's not much else you can do really!

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

Can I suggest that cultural appropriation be defined as any instance of someone appropriating elements of a culture they're not native to, regardless of its aesthetics or propriety? This would reconcile quite nicely with your "sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad" proposition.

[melsner.livejournal.com]

So an extremely silly example of what some people would call "cultural appropriation" would be Americans eating Mexican food? Or Mexican fast food places? Heh, or "fish & chips."

This also reminds me of some of the horrible stuff that you can see in LARP... "Top of the morning, to you! I have a thick accent and I be a noble IRA fighter against British Tyranny!"

anyway, there's always going to be some assimiliation and blending of cultures... Just like Rock & Roll comes out of various other forms of music. And then there are also wannabes and posers.