More on the feminine form

[annwfyn]

I've just been looking at the results of my poll on the feminine form of yesterday.

It's been quite an interesting thing to look at. pierot, and a few others, by the way, claims that my results have been hideously skewed by the types of pictures I used. The very skinny girls were all catwalk models, striking catwalk poses, which Jeremiah feels are fairly non-sexual. The next size up of girl were mostly glamour models and lingerie poses, so you've got pretty girls looking sexualised. The larger girls were mostly candids, which naturally look less good. This is depressingly true, but I was rather limited by the pictures that google images could give me. Maybe when I've got a bit more time I'll try another poll and spend a bit more time looking for pictures which are closer to each other in terms of poses/style etc.

I also thought that the results were also pretty massively skewed by people's personal preferences in terms of style etc. Girl #9 (who was correctly identified by Darren as Toccara from America's Next Top Model) received dramatically fewer votes than the two girls on either side of her, and I think maybe that was the style in which she was posed, and her overall look. In general, the two Black girls received surprisingly few votes - I'm not saying it all comes down to racism, but I think they both represented a certain type of look which the folks on my flist don't seem to go for.

Girl #8 and Girl #10 both did well, and were probably the two most 'goth friendly' pics on my flist - one looking a bit like a 1950s pinup in terms of clothes and pose, and the other doing her sepia and slightly mopey thang.

For those who are curious, the winners of my poll were....













I'm also pondering my own responses to the photos I put up - especially my slightly weird response to very slim girls, which I may go into in a more filtered post, for I fear I have a mean, rude and sometimes judgemental lizard brain. I'm also pondering my own very odd body image perception and the way my perception of myself varies so very very much.

And finally, I'm cursing my boyfriend's sense of smell. pierot commented last night that he doesn't like most perfumes, because he can normally smell the base product used in them. He dislikes most commercial perfumes, because he can smell the ethanol. He doesn't like most BPAL scents because they smell of oil and soap. He likes a few - the more complex, spicey scents - but about 80% of them just don't work for his nose.

This makes it so very tricky to buy scent. Currently I think we're down to one BPAL scent he has decided he actively likes on me. Some days I just despair...

Comments

[becky-spence.livejournal.com]

I personally feel there's a distinct difference between very slim people and some of those images you had in your poll - to my mind, very slim does not go hand in hand with seeing every rib and looking like you may keel over and die at any moment. I know a couple of girls who don't do the dieting, don't overdue the exercise, but are just naturally very slim and tiny. They do not look ill, whereas those images of very slim people on your poll, to me at least, did look ill. I wanted to give them chocolate cake!

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

When I looked at your poll yesterday I was interested to see a very similar pattern between the results for what people who fancied girls thought was attractive and what girls felt was attractive. It was encouraging.
I asked my mum what she thought. She 'moved up one' from me, she would have been happy with the figure of a girl I thought was too thin but the largest figure I would have been happy with she thought was too big.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

Your #1 yesterday is, I think, a photoshop used to make a point. I knoww I've seen it many other places, and in the outcry there's always been people saying that, anyhow.

Perhaps next time include some genuinely *tiny* people - like Japanese women, who can look overweight at size 8-10.

What makes me most uncomfortable is expecting to get grief for preferring the look of bony bits. Not as extreme as Ms Knightley or the catwalk coathangers, but I *do* like hipbones and bony shoulders, and the standard LJ f-list (among the peopel I know, anyway) looks down on that qute vociferously.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Yes - Tina linked to that yesterday. To be honest, #1 was meant to be at an extreme, just like #15 was. If I hadn't found that pic, I'd have just gone hunting to try and find another pic of someone who looked really anorexic. I got it from googling for 'anorexic girl', which is what I wanted my extreme end of the spectrum to be.

The reason I didn't have more tiny people was that I was trying to keep to a standard. What I was looking for when I chose my pics were girls who were about 5'8" tall, and wearing bikinis or lingerie - just so they were roughly similar apart from the weight.

Small girls (to my eyes anyway) don't look 'skinny' when they are a size 6 or a size 8. My little sister is 5' tall. She has never been bigger than a size 10, even when podgy, and normally is a size 6-8. She doesn't look skinny to me - she's just built on this tiny scale, and would look more like one of the middle range girls, just scaled down to fit. If that makes sense.

On the personal preferences thing - for years I had a thing for tiny tiny pixie-like girls. I still think they can be very cute - my tastes have just changed a bit. I don't think that means that it's wrong to like pixie-girls tho.

I keep trying, as well, to differentiate between 'thin girls aren't pretty', which they of course can be, and 'girls who have dieted themselves into weird skin stretchy elbow jutting ickiness'



That's Christina Ricci, who is maybe a better example than Keira Knightly of someone who just looks like that have spent a lot of time not eating to get to be that shape.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

See, I think her face looks *amazing" at that weight, and her figure does as well. I just think her head's too big for her body. It's the difference between Courteney Cox & Jennifer Aniston; CC is thinner, but looks ok cos she has a smaller skull. JA just looks like a lollipop/

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I think maybe that is just a difference in perception. I think she looks uncomfortable at that weight.

looks much more like the kind of weight and shape she's comfortable at to me.

[silver-blue.livejournal.com]

Ricci looks wierd in that, one of those "I've dieted too much and now look a bit like an alien." (although not as extreme as some I've seen)

Which is a pity, because when she's not all skinny she's got masses of sex appeal.

[taimatsu]

Her neck! Her neck looks... scrawny. I can see what you mean about the rest of her, maybe, although I like a bit more chest than that, but the neck! would put me off.

[silverclear.livejournal.com]

I agree that she looks good at that weight. In the other picture Sally's posted below I think she looks winter-weight! She looks fine at both weights to me, they're different, but both ok.

[elethiomel.livejournal.com]

the two Black girls received surprisingly few votes - I'm not saying it all comes down to racism

Interesting point you raise. I don't think I'm racist, I really don't. Yet I don't find black girls attractive. I simply don't, never have (well, there have been a few notable exceptions, I suppose, but by and large I don't). And it worries me, deeply, that that may be a sign of some sort of deep-seated institutional racism that I'm not even consciously aware of...

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

Or maybe we're attracted to people who are like us, and you're not black.

[xambrius.livejournal.com]

I'm white but I very much prefer brown at least as far as mere physical appearance is concerned.

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

[typical-child.livejournal.com]

is funny, cos i've ALWAYS been more attracted to a man the darker his skin and hair... i'll have to ponder the women....

I think its Lizard Brains way of finding dominant Genes... perhaps...

I thought the darker ladies were both sexy in their own way, though much of it has to do with the pose as it does the size and facial expression. the smaller of the two was standing in a very confronting tank girl attitude way and the second more overtly SEXUAL and strong...

I'd say its what kind of thing we find sexy... and its different for each person... personally I voted for the demure, soft, vulnerable, pose in the sepia... though had it been in colour and the girls face held stronger I doubt I would have voted for it as high!!! I voted based on my impression of the photo.

so if the darker skined women were posed in softer lights and tones in softer poses, i'd daresay they would score higher overall... I think it is the soft and gentle, aproachable and perhaps cheeky form of sexuality which is more acceptable in the terms of our subconcious cultural perception rather than racisim..

;)

Miss J's 2c

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I was chatting to jez and Andy about this last night - Andy was saying that a part of this might be that our idea of 'beauty' is often very heavily based on certain facial proportions - distance between eyes, distance between nose and mouth - which are quite standard in caucasians, but aren't the same in other races, which is also why people from a different race can look much more similar - we're not used to the way their facial structure works.

I've also read studies which suggest that people go for SOs which look a little like them, which struck me as slightly weird, but is apparently relatively common.

I've known other people who just don't find other races attractive. I think I'm the opposite. I really do find darker skin, very dark eyes etc very cute, and I worry horribly that I'm doing something equally morally dubious - collecting the exotic or fetishising the 'other' or something like that.

[lanfykins.livejournal.com]

I've also read studies which suggest that people go for SOs which look a little like them

<looks at self>
<looks at uksilverfang>

Yeeeeeeees....

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

And then you have couples like me and jez. His workmates at the Household Bank apparently thought I was his sister when I first came to meet him after work.

That might be the shared hair dye admittedly. L'Oreal can do a lot for family resemblences.

[taimatsu]

Also, there might be a thing to do with range of variation in facial features and other characteristics. I mean, I grew up around predominantly white people. White people vary a lot in precise skin tone, hair colour, eye colour, and so on. People with much darker skin don't generally vary in the same way - they are likely to have black hair and dark eyes, for example. Likewise with East Asian people. I think you learn to appreciate the differences which make people unique *within* the groups you experience as you grow up. Otherwise I think one is less likely to take on board the variations between people of a different racial background, and that means you are less likely to spot the things that make them unique and beautiful to you, and so on and so forth.

I could be talking crap here. I think it's a lot to do with what mixture of people you are used to as you grow up. If you experience Black people as something different and not-one-of-us you are likely to wind up treating them differently in your attractions, too, whether that's ignoring or fetishising them. Insert sociology/racism ranting here.

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

I think you have to get your eye in, too.

Certainly I don't think that I am seeing more cute Japanese people - they've been there all the time, but I'm more used to proportions and the aesthetic now, and given I am in the land of the 00 ladies and like curvy women and chunky blokes, I'm sort of surprised, because in general they don't fit my body type at all...

But then neither does Mark :)

[raggedhalo.livejournal.com]

Partially true. Also, likely, is the fact that we're programmed to go for people who are paler than we are, because they tend to be more fertile...

Not a hard and fast requirement, but a rule of thumb. So don't beat yourself up about it too much, but it's always worth questioning these things.

[sea-cucumber.livejournal.com]

I was torn between the black girl (number 9?) and the one just below her in the red (number 10?), I went for number 10 in the end but it was very close, it took me a good five minutes to decide, I think it was the fact that the towel covered up number 9 and I couldn't see so well what her shape was so I went for what I could see...

[lanfykins.livejournal.com]

<nods>
Same here.

[the-laydee.livejournal.com]

I kinda have almost the opposite reaction to you about those sizes. But I feel that's understandable. The bigger sizes just look wrong to me, but I know this is because of my fairly skewed ideas about the female form. When I say "bigger" I do mean "normal" by the way.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I think everyone has skewed views on the female form. I suspect I'm as strident as I am about the media and the skinny because for years I totally believed that skinny = pretty, and determinedly didn't eat for ages, in order to try and attain this elusive thin form.

These days I jump up and down and say "skinny doesn't have to mean pretty" because thinking that keeps me saner and able to eat the food I need to stop me becoming insanely depressed, lethargic and hell to live with.

[reindeerflotila.livejournal.com]

Re: racial doom.

I have further oddness in that I like Black Women alot, but Black men don't do it for me.

I should also point out astro_dust flicked a finger a tthe screen when I was looking at your post and said " Look who it is! Look!" so he too, identified Toccara.....

[xambrius.livejournal.com]

I didn't recognize #9, but I thought she was hot. Deciding between her and #10 was difficult. Like Charlotte, I ultimately went with #10 because I could see more of her (and I very much liked what I saw).

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

[eladriell.livejournal.com]

"Ye don't look at the mantle when yer pokin' the fireplace" according to Jack, and ofttimes beauty is secondary to availability anyway.

Everyone has a different ideas of beauty, and its never a constant. All you can do is look at individuals and decide whether they're hot or howlin'.

your poll

[mangochutney04.livejournal.com]

I agree with that comment eladriell made about beauty being linked to availability. I knew one guy - a totally platonic friend - who said my arse was 'too skinny' to be attractive to him - I'm size 12 - and continually pointed out *incredibly large* and I mean *incredibly large* women as more beautiful. I asked my husband about this and whether my perception of beauty might be completely opposite to everyone else's so maybe I'd just been getting it wrong the whole time and really was too thin to be attractive even at size 12. But Robin said that this guy was referring not to what was objectively beautiful but what was available to him in terms of girls who would actually agree to go out with him because anything else would be pointless for this guy. I hadn't thouught of that before.

From your poll I think Nos 1 and 2 are s*xy. No 3 is a bit on the large side for me. Robin independently came to the same conclusion saying that No.3 was 'not really his cup of tea'. One of the women Robin liked I thought was a bit too thin and bony but I can't remember which one that was and I'd better not load up shots of bikini clad women at work as my colleagues will start to wonder...

I don't think not fancying other races is racist. I have had serious Indian boyfriends but have been less interested in black guys. I've been on a date with one and I used to like Seal and Terence Trent D'arby but for some reason it doesn't really work out for me so much chemistry wise but then I also look very similar to my husband and am oft accused of being his sister which I think must look quite dodgy!

Re: your poll

[mangochutney04.livejournal.com]

p.s I just skimmed over the poll and before anyone takes me wrong what I meant was to refer to Nos 1, 2 and 3 from your results!!! I'm not into skeletal!

Torrid

[melsner.livejournal.com]

When did I officially become the proponent of larger women?

Anyway. see if any of the models on Torrid.com work as styled pictures of large women.