On monogamy...

[annwfyn]

I found this quote while drifting around livejournal communities. Tis from the polyamory community, unsurprisingly enough.

a typical monogamous relationship usually does not leave room for total honesty on a day to day basis.
these things develop and a monogamous environment sometimes does not allow one to change and develop as you go.

I looked at that, and blinked, and pondered, and looked again.

And now I offer it up to my readership.

How unreasonable/untrue is that statement? Or is the writer right on the money?

Opinions?

Comments

[kathminchin.livejournal.com]

I would say that the first half is crap. THe second half: monogamous environment sometimes does not allow one to change and develop as you go. can be true, but it can be equally true in a poly relationship.

Hrmm

[hardwired.livejournal.com]

Honestly.

The comment is coming from a "poly" person who is "pro-poly anto-mono". You justify your choice by denegrating the alternative.

What he is saying is: "Its great being poly, all the mono people are teh suck"

It's not a justified or clear point, simply a flag waving exercise.

[molez.livejournal.com]

I think honesty is not something that if forced upon you by the type of relationship you are in, it's quite possible to be completly honest in any kind of relationship, it just takes a lot of commitment, a willingness to talk and understanding (on both side).

But then again I have odd honesty issues. *shrug*

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's true.
You can be monogamous and honest.

For instance;

Boyfriend - I really find such and such attractive, I'm not going to act on it I just thought it was honest to tell you.
Girlfriend - Ouch, stingy, stingy - I know you are honest with me though and won't act on it as you have said you won't.

Someone finding someone attractive does not mean they have to act on it. The suggestion that monogamy excludes honesty suggests that people are unable to be faithful, the fact that they are in a 'mongamous' relationship preventing them to be able to be honest about their infidelity.

Well I think that

a) A lot of people are quite capable of keeping their genitals to themselves should they wish to do so.
b) Honesty may not always be pleasent and may hurt but there is no reason why full honesty should not exist in a monogamous relationship - by definition, dishonesty only comes into play if you start being dishonest. Whether it be about sex or anything else, both polyamourous and monogamous people are capable of lying and telling the truth.

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

tooth_fairy has said what I would have said.

[lexx-uk.livejournal.com]

You can get Dishonesty among the poly and honesty amoung the Mono crowd.
Thus the great Lexx says its BS.
Humm maybe the Poly-golly crowd should get there lives in order before patting themselves on the back........how many problems of honesty and hurt are caused when one link in a chain breaks?
Intresting to develop a theory that goes against our Evolutionary development?

[castorlion.livejournal.com]

Intresting to develop a theory that goes against our Evolutionary development?


Huh? Would you mind explaining that one a bit more?

[raggedhalo.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it's true of some monogamous relationships, just like I suspect it's true of some polygamous relationships.

Sounds like its author has had some bad experiences that they think are transposed worldwide.

[castorpollux23.livejournal.com]

I think it is entirely dependent on the people involved. Surely there are poly people who are hoenst, and there are mono people that are honest.

This person has a perception in a certain way, and though it may be true for him, it is not necessarily true for others. Of course, the verasity of the statement depends entirely on your outlook and on human nature. If for instance, you belive one gender incapable of monogamy, this statement would be more true, if you don't believe that, this statement is false.

All and all, I think this individual is trying to promote thier particular lifestyle.

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

I suspect what they mean is that in their idea of an average monogamous relationship doesn't allow for saying to your partner 'I find X attractive'. Celebrities don't apply here, but in terms of other friends and random strangers it is often considered taboo to admit to an attraction to anyone other than your chosen partner.

Personally I feel that if your partner is so insecure that they feel threatened by a natural biological response to an attractive person there are deeper issues in the relationship that need addressing. But then I'm a very lucky girl and can talk to Scott about these things.

[lanfykins.livejournal.com]

uksilverfang and I talk about such things too.

Honesty is one of the things that keeps people together. Without it they end up going out with a mask of someone that doesn't actually exist.

I've never, for example, seen my parents be dishonest to one another, even when their marriage was shakiest.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Personally I feel that if your partner is so insecure that they feel threatened by a natural biological response to an attractive person there are deeper issues in the relationship that need addressing.

I disagree to a certain extent. I think honesty in relationships is good, but equally I think all couples have different boundaries, and those boundaries probably work well for lots of them. I also think that's quite a liberated post-1960s POV. I feel sure that my grandmother never chatted to my grandfather about that hot young man at the Embassy Ball, but I don't think it would be fair to say that there were issues in the relationship, and the fact that as far as I can tell they were really happy together for over forty years, and it only ended when my grandfather died seems to indicate that it did work.

Some couples, as far as I can tell, genuinely don't look at other people. Others don't feel it is appropriate to talk about it to anyone, or try and ignore those biological responses. I don't think that's necessarily a sign of their relationship being flawed any more than my chosing to ignore any level of attraction I feel for anyone in not acting on it - we all chose to give up some level of sexual interaction within a relationship when we chose monogamy. I'd say that chosing to just ignore any mental twinges is just taking that a little bit further, and if it's the choice of the people involved in the relationship, and is part of a relationship contract (as it were) which makes both parties happy, then I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

The only words I'd challenge them on are "A typical" and "usually". Replace them with "Some" and "sometimes", and the statement is true. Packed with spin, sure, but still true.

Of course,you could then say exactly the same about any type of relationship.

[castorpollux23.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you can always replace the words in the statement with other relationship types...

[vireton.livejournal.com]

ypu could substitute monogamous for poly and have the same arguement about the statment as is currently going on!!

just wondering any reason for asking?? just curious i have meandering thoughts sometimes and wonder weather i should ask people on Lj

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I tend to post a lot of random thoughts on LJ. It's a good place to get opinions, and people often say interesting things which make me think. And I like that.

"total honesty" ????

[lapinenoireuk.livejournal.com]

Interesting idea ???

I mean would you like to like in a world of "total honesty" (not just in the "I fancy a crack at that" level but in open statement of all feelings) or do "little white lies" provide the grist of civilisation ?

I ask this question knowing that I would (do) work better / have less conflict in a "civilised" / "untruthful" society.

But to return to subject, as others have said, this correspondent appears to have "issues" that cause them to speak in broad generalisations (IMHO).

The disilusioned cynic

Re: "total honesty" ????

[flamma-lupus.livejournal.com]

my little world is like that these days, uncompromising honesty, it's caused a few hurt feelings in places, but overall I've got the impression it was appreciated more than people would expect!

A lie is simply a cowardly way out, and often leads to far more hassle in the long run. If you can be up front and honest about something, it goes a long way towards making things "better".

[malakite.livejournal.com]

Like other people, I'm of the belief (and opinion) that the poster has an axe to grind. Total honesty can happen in any variety of relationship - it just takes work from all sides.

[red-phil.livejournal.com]

A truer form of that statement might read

a typical monogamous some relationships usually does do not leave room for total honesty on a day to day basis.
these things develop and a monogamous environment sometimes does not allow one to change and develop as you go.


or in other words; 'a relationship can turn bad if it forces people to lie.'

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Very very true.

Monogamy can mean freedom

[(Anonymous)]

I completely disagree with this statement but then that's because I don't view that there is any alternative to monogamy at all, at least not when it comes to relationships (as opposed to being single when it is of course perfectly fine to sleep with more than one person).

Polyamory - in any observations I've made of it - just seems to end in destruction and a lot of hurt for everyone involved.

Anyone who says they can get over their partner sleeping with someone else is either a) totally insane or b) lying to you.

Being in a long-term relationship is about reconnecting with that same other person that you are madly in love with through the physical act of sex on a regular basis, many times and through different periods of change and circumstance and that spiritual experience doesn't allow for anyone else being involved in any way with either partner's sex life or with the intimate relationship.

But I would say that, because I am very lucky and have a wonderful husband who I love to bits and have a fantastic honest and monogamous marriage with.

There's no one else I'd ever want to sleep with in this world because they just wouldn't compare to my husband and could never compete with the very strong emotional bond that we already have, which is all the more solid because of our monogomous intimate relationship.

I actually used to be really commitment phobic myself, as well as anti-marriage and I couldn't settle down to the idea of being with just one guy for life.

Then I met Robin, got blown away and fell in love and I have found that marriage has given me untold freedoms, many more than being single ever did, as I am now free to be 100% myself with someone who loves me for myself and not only won't stop me from growing as a person in the marriage but will positively support and encourage it.

Monogamy, with the man I love truly, has turned out to equal freedom to me.

Random debate type reply...

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I'd disagree with the statement that monogamy is the only option in building a successful relationship. It'sobviously worked really well for you, it's working rather well for me right now as well, but that doesn't necessarily mean it works for everyone, in the same way that many of my life choices aren't right for everyone. I've known a couple of fairly solid polyamorous set ups - I think they are based on people for whom sex has different connotations than it does for most folk. Essentially, polyamory is kinda based on the notion that romantic love is no different to familial or platonic love, and it is considered entirely reasonable to be able to divide that between multiple people. I think it also pre-supposes to a certain extent that sex is not necessarily any different to a wide variety of other pleasant physical sensations and is again therefore OK to share around a bit more - in the poly perspective you wouldn't object to your partner getting a backrub from someone else, so why object to a blow job?

OK...that's probably very bad phrasing on my part, and it's probably exaggerated a bit. Suffice it to say that I don't think polyamory is necessarily a bad thing, or doomed to failure. I think that because all people are different, all relationships will be different and different things will work for different people. I know that, for example, myself and Jeremiah spend hideous amounts of our time together. I've been told in the past that that's a Bad Thing (tm) and you should always have your own personal space/spend some time apart in a happy relationship, but, y'know, it suits us. You and Robin took a crazy leap of faith and got married straight away, when conventional wisdom says you're meant to wait for a lot longer, but it totally worked for you! I guess for some people it works to say 'hey - I don't want just one boyfriend', and if all concerned are cool with that, I guess it works for them as well.

[fetket.livejournal.com]

Every relasionship leaves room for total honesty on a day to day basic. But frankly nobody wants total honesty. We want honesty in the important things and our partner to complement our eyes at 8am and hug into out stubble and tell us we're wonderful, when we know we are flabby and aging.

When it comes down to it polyamourous (from experience) relationships have less room for day to day total honesty. Frankly total honestly offends and if you can get warmth and affection from one partner you'll ignore the brash one if thats what you need, and sometimes we need warmth and security to grow, even when we know it is a lie.

In addition I've only actually met three decent polyamorous relasionships that I can remember. In most cases the rest were built on massive instability and dishonesty at their core. The problem being in any grouping of people there are usually two which work the best. Those two eventually break away from the others.

So... A basic no for the first sentence, but you don't want total honesty. A yes for the second, but it's true of all relationships and environments, the writter has written sometimes, and frankly the same sentance is true if you replace monogamous with virtually anything else, including prison and radioactive.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I think you're right - most people don't want total honesty from anyone. I know I don't want my friends to actually say 'yeah...that dress makes you look like crap', or my father to say 'actually, I was really hoping for a son'.

So much of our society is based on a level of dishonesty, and that isn't a bad thing.

[eladriell.livejournal.com]

Same could be said of any relationship setup.

frankly, all that matters is the people involved and an honesty between them of what they both expect in a relationship and from one.

without that, your doomed to failure, with it you have the chance, and a chance is all it is, to be happy.

tee-ho.

Thats my sensible side talking, as my instinctual reaction to polyamoury or however ye spell it is one of loathing and i doubt a rant will do much here.

[typical-child.livejournal.com]

at least it stipulates a "typical monogamous relationship" which means that by in large that the writers typical monogamous relationship has been exactly what they have written.

In so far as what I think, I think that all relationships change or they stagnate... the nature of all people is change, and I am certainly a different person to 5 years ago when I began dating J and he in his turn, while a constant person, has also changed.

the relationship changes slightly with each trial and joy, so if we don’t see that it has changed is hardly saying that it has not.

Now the question is does it always change as you would like it to or as fast as you would like it.... no not always, but the compromises we make and the conversations we have about it with the other creates the basis for the change.

If one does not feel that a relationship has room for honesty however, I would suggest that it may perhaps not be the best thing to pursuit... I think it has nothing to do with Monogamy or otherwise, it is the foundation of the relationship...

Miss J's 2c

hope all is well BTW! :)

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Life is good. House buying progress slowly.

Hope all is good with you and yours?