On the topic of 'the celtic nations'

[annwfyn]

I just read a rant on LJ, in which someone said (and I quote) "I am not Native American, but I am of Great Celtic descent* and and the rising Christian Europeans** did the same thing to those people as they did to the Native Americans***. That is why it angers me"

Now, obviously there are a number of problematic things about this statement. However, the one thing in this which really irritates me is the following.

THE IRISH AND CHUNKS OF THE SCOTS WERE CHRISTIAN BEFORE THE FRICKING ANGLO-SAXONS WERE! THE ANGLO-SAXON CHURCH WAS PARTIALLY FORMED BY MISSIONARIES FROM IONA IN SCOTLAND. THERE WAS AN IRISH DELEGATION AT THE SYNOD OF WHITBY.

(yes, those capital letters do mean I'm shouting)

For some reason there is this demented faith amongst a certain type of American than the collective peoples of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittony (actually, I think they mostly forget about the Cornish and the Bretons. Probably because the Bretons are French) were the Native Americans of Europe. Really, they weren't!

Scotland was a sovereign nation until the 17th century when it's king became king of England as well. It always had its own aristocracy. Ireland had its own episcopal church structure when England was run by large men called 'Wulfgar' who were busy worshippping Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. There was a lovely wealthy Christian church in Ireland until the pagan Vikings decided to come and pillage with gay abandon, thus destroying almost all the written records of that period (the vikings basically created the concept of the 'dark ages' by destroying all the records of this period, meaning we know next to nothing beyond a few single documents and a few bits and pieces from the oral tradition). Do any Americans rant about how the Evil Pagans destroying their lovely Celtic culture?

No? Instead they whitter inanely about some nebulous 'European culture' which allegedly came and colonized them.

Why?

Why do people feel the need to go there.

Gah!




*I don't think anyone has told him that 'Great Celtic' is not an ethnicity.

**I also think someone needs to explain that 'European' is also not a homogenous cultural grouping.

***I think he means 'make them Christian and then kill them. I must say, as a White Anglo-Saxon Christian I'm shocked to hear this. How could we have let our standards fall since the 5th century? Why are the Welsh not safely locked away on a reservation right now?

Comments

[madwitch.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but he also thinks that the Celts were peace loving, fluffy bunny noble savages (which is how he sees the NAs), who communed with the Earth and loved each other.

He's amazingly funny, and I am contemplating joing communities just to wind him up every time he calls himself a 'Great Celt', because I know more than he does. :-D

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

I told you about Sean Prather getting irate at me when we were at Stonehenge, no?

He was going "oh yeah, i can feel my celtic roots" (he thinks he's Irish, despite being from Seattle for at least 3 generations).

When i pointed out it wasn't a Celtic site he wasn't amused!

But yes, the above is 'special'.

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

"The Celts were peaceful, noble primitives"

"What, you mean a different bunch to the group who killed and enslaved each other, and anyone else who got close enough - and were just unlucky not to be as big, aggressive and well armed as the Scandinavians (or Romans), nor close-knit enough to really be much of a threat in terms of Empire?"

"Err"

"Tit"

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

Also, i went to the Museum of the Native American in Washington DC...it was the most hippy place i've ever seen! There was a lot of good stuff in there, and a lot of stuff that actually made me quite glad to be British (rather than, you know, Spanish or American - at least we were only a bit mean, and actually abided by the treaties we made...mostly).

Interesting stuff - but a very definate bias (though almost all museums have one that you can sense - things like the British Museum's "here is cool stuff we plundered from across the world!" seem a lot more honest than others mind!).

[madwitch.livejournal.com]

He really thinks that, there's been a small group of people of Celtic descent showing quite clearly that they are, indeed, of Celtic descent in response to that. Except without actual stabbings, as it is the Internet.

He quite obviously has no idea what he's talking about. His rant was originally about the evil that is Thanksgiving, and how he wants to live on a Reservation with that noble, peaceable savage, the Native American, oh how evil are the Europeans, etc. When asked to SHUT THE HELL UP by some NAs, he said no. Which says everything you need to know about this guy.

[lawrencegillies.livejournal.com]

Additionally, the Anglo-Saxon "invasion" of Romano-British (Celtic may be a stretch for what was later to be England) was a lot more peaceful than previously thought. The Saxons were invited in as a mercenary people, and were then used by Britons against other Britons, and there was much more peaceful assimilation that popularly believed, with a great deal of intermarriage.

True enough, the Welsh are a conquered people, as you point out, the Scots were not (at least until that whole jacobite thing) a feat partly due to the length of the Scottish coastline and the difficulty min blockading it as the Welsh had been, if I remember correctly.

I think that you're right in pointing out the lack of a cohesive "European" culture. The only common element to a large part of Europe, the former Roman Empire was the Church

There was a great deal of competition between the Celtic and Roman Churches, and there were missionaries from Ireland working in Britain well before St Augustine landed, he just had the sense to work from the top of society down.

[lawrencegillies.livejournal.com]

I do quite like the idea of a reservation for the Welsh though

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

British Museum, also known as 'What we looted on our holidays'.

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

Fun!

Thanksgiving is, in some ways, a fairly weirdly not good holiday - celebrating the natives helping early settlers to survive, to give them the opportunity to later destroy culture and life, and drive folks off their lands... But does seem to have a good focus - food and family/friends!

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

I like to think of it as the "National Museum of Plunder" - it really should have been built in the shape of an big cross, for when folks are flying over it ;)

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

Isn't that called "Wales"? You can go there and watch them in their native muck ;)

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

You know, there's a whole world of debate about the Anglo-Saxon 'invasion'. You're walking into THREE MILLION YEARS of stroppy archaeologists debating, with GREAT HORDES OF SAXONS on one side and three men in a longboat, all called 'Sven' on the other.

I personally keep getting confused. I was quite keen on the three men in a longboat, all called 'Sven' theory for ages, and cited things like 'unchanged boundary lines of settlements' and 'farms having the same freaking fields right through the transition period', until some damn geneticist did a study which indicated that the population of southern England had WAY more in common, genetically, with the population of Friesland in Germany than they do with the population of North Wales, which kinda suggested a definite influx of people.

Then I was befuddled, for I like my archaeology through DNA testing, and am still pondering.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I remember the first time I went to it, being absolutely amazed that not only had we not taken everything that was nailed down, we'd taken the stuff that was. I mean, what the hell kind of gunboat runs off with the walls and doors to other cultures' great monuments?!?!

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

The sort that doesn't manage to get an Empire in South or Central America...but ends up with a good chunk of their gold anyhow!

We do have some fantasic things in there, that you have to wonder how we managed to get hold of it - and get it out/away once we had! The Persian stuff is wonderful!

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

And most of Yorkshire is Norweigan by DNA ;)

[lawrencegillies.livejournal.com]

I have a book called "Celts and Saxons" (if memory serves)which I could lend you. I don't recall much of it, but then I don't think I've actually read much of it. Its on my pile. I can lend it to you if you're interested.

Was that genetic research what became the "Blood of the Vikings" programme? I seem to recall from that that the north of scotland has closer genetic ties to Scandinavia than to Celtic cultures, as the Norwegian viking went over the top of Scotland to the Isle of Man and Ireland on their travels, and the Orkeneys are pretty much pure viking. (which explains why they have a very scandinavian cadence to their accent)

[lawrencegillies.livejournal.com]

But they keep getting out...

[(Anonymous)]

Where is this person talking? I wish to satisfy my morbid curiousity..

[ksirafai.livejournal.com]

You do have to pay to go see the natives in their natural habitats, as per all decent safaris.

Though I think they call it the 'Severn Toll Bridge' nowadays. ;)

[lawrencegillies.livejournal.com]

So its more of a Safari Park than a Reservation then?

I suppose you do have to be careful going through some of the enclosures or the inhabitants will rip bits off your car...

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

Perhaps some sort of fence...that dyke just isn't doing the job any more!

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

Never did find out how much it costs to get a permit to bag a brace of Welshies...

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*giggles*

What? Did he think the Irish had snuck over to Wiltshire to build it?

[quisalan.livejournal.com]

You know, there's a whole world of debate about the Anglo-Saxon 'invasion'. You're walking into THREE MILLION YEARS of stroppy archaeologists debating, with GREAT HORDES OF SAXONS on one side and three men in a longboat, all called 'Sven' on the other.

*absolutely pisses self laughing*

Oh God, I remember that one! God Bless Oxford British History I (411AD-1066)

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

What, the idea of Irish builders heading overseas to get some work too crazy?

(they probably had some extra tarmac from a job down the way if you want your drive doing too)