The invisible Asian people...

[annwfyn]

This is a totally random post, but recently I wound up checking out the demographics of the UK, partly in response to a conversation online about racism and the differences between the US and the UK.

I discovered that the UK was 90% White, about 4% Asian (of Indian/Pakistani/Nepali/Sinhala origins) and the next largest ethnic group (African or Carribbean origins) made up about 1.5% of the population.

It's slightly skewed in London, but those are the national figures as of 2001.

These were floating through my head as I watched TV.

It was nice that in every ad break there was at least one Black family - normally quite middle class, and not terribly threatening, but they were there, and definitely looked to be of African descent. Only one per ad break, on average, but at least there was some kind of visibility. Then there were lots and lots of White folk.

Guess who didn't exist?

Honestly, over about two nights I saw one Asian guy in any kind of advert, and he was dressed in anglicized style clothes and talking to Bill Oddie in a Post Office ad (which are, by the way, fab). No women in saris. No women in salwar kameez. No men in turbans.

But I see those people in the street every day. There are three times as many of them as there are those of African descent. Am I missing something? Are there ads or TV shows I've just not noticed?

I have a theory, btw, as to why the media carefully puts in lots of Token Black Folk and entirely ignores Asians, and it's this vague suspicion that the UK has mostly let itself be tutored by the US on race relations, where the African American experience has been very influential in terms of shaping the discourse. This is reinforced by the number of people who I've heard refer to Black British folk as 'African American'. Why they want to call anyone Black 'American', I have NO idea!

The other possible theory is that Asians spark British xenophobia more than the average Black guy, by wearing funny clothes and talking weird accents and having dodgy religions, but I'm unsure on this whole subject.

Opinions?

Comments

[lawrencegillies.livejournal.com]

Thiere is an advert for Tilda microwaveable rice which is aimed squarely at the asian market.

At first I thought that it was awful sterotyping, but it appears to be aimed at an asian market.

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting debate. We have discussions around the topic fairly regularly at work because the pictures we use in our products have to reflect diversity. In some cases they have to reflect diversity in an area that really isn't diverse (for example men in nursing) and we have real problems meeting the guidelines in those cases without being tokenistic - i.e. including someone just because they are black/asian/male/female/disabled.

My personal take on it is that the reason we have a lot of black images in the media as opposed to Asian is that the Afro-Carribean section of the population is a lot more vocal about their rights and discrimination than Asians are, and have been for a longer period of time. Think of the Ali-G thing 'Is it 'cause I is black?' - the actor wasn't even black, he was Asian.

The darker side of it is somewhat more problematic. There is a climate of fear at the moment which is directed at the Asian population, particularly the Muslim population but not exclusively. This makes the media hesitant to put Asians into marketing because it may harm sales. Sad and cynical, but quite probably true.

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

Hmm, i don't know - i see asian folk all over the place (but then again, Birmingham i think has them as a majority now) and rarely feel threatened in any way (other than by groups of drunk lads - which i feel threatened by regardless of 'colour'). I suspect you've a point about the taught by the US about race relations - and i'm not sure why!

[imagesandwords.livejournal.com]

This is reinforced by the number of people who I've heard refer to Black British folk as 'African American'.

That's obviously incorrect in those cases but the whole terminology/categorisation of races is a complete minefield.

For the last two or three years various special interest groups have been meeting with the people working on the 2011 census to agree categories and they don't seem to be getting any further forward...

For example one faction wanted to be called African, one faction wants to be called black. From what I recall each finds the other term offensive and as far as I can tell wants the other faction to be labelled with the term they want to use.

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

" Think of the Ali-G thing 'Is it 'cause I is black?' - the actor wasn't even black, he was Asian. "

Sacha Baron Cohen is Jewish.

For years I thought David Baddiel was Asian, although it turns out he's Jewish as well.

[sea-cucumber.livejournal.com]

I think it's to do with religion and to a lesser extent culture. I am not sure of statistics for this, but I think Black people tend towards believing in the majority religion of this country so they might be easier for the average White UK person to relate to, whereas Asian people have a whole variety of religions (e.g. Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist) and much different cultural norms (e.g. how women should behave, caste systems, that sort of thing)?
I have no idea though, and I expect I have explained that very badly!

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

I didn't realise the two were mutually exclusive, but it's a thing I didn't know anyway and thus interests me.

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

To be Jewish is part of an ethnic group; I think the Race Relation Laws have always covered discrimination against Jews (and Sikhs) but not Muslims (until recently) because it wasn't categorised as an ethnic/racial group.

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

That's somewhat open to debate these days really. While Jews certainly were an ethnic group in the past, and very much are in the Middle East, I think that the mass migration of Jews in the later part of the 20th century and the consequent mingling with other racial groups means that realistically you can be both Asian and Jewish, in much the same was you can be British and Jewish.

That's not to say that Sacha Baren-Cohen is Asian of course. I stand corrected in that case.

[xambrius.livejournal.com]

Dodgy religions? <laugh> Christianity is based on veneration of a man who, if you believe the myth cycle, was killed via crucifixion, buried in a cave and then returned to life three days later. How is that any less dodgy than similar fantastic scenarios from Asian mythologies? To characterize Asian religions as "dodgy" compared to the dominant religion in Western society (to say nothing of the many bizarre heretical cults that have sprung from it) is just another form of discrimination. You're pretty much saying "familiar is OK just because it is familiar, and unfamiliar is not OK just because it is not familiar."

But that's normal. It is exceptionally common in human history for the people of any culture to view the unfamiliar as (potentially) threatening and fear it accordingly. While Christianity was still an underground Jewish cult, mainstream Romans spread all sorts of amusing rumors about Christians. Among other things, Christians allegedly met in catacombs to practice ritual cannibalism and occasionally organized thug squads of zealots to abduct children (to be the meal). Two millennia later, Christians are the mainstream for our culture, and they spread the very same rumors about Wiccans and other neo-pagans (gotta love the irony).

I think your hypothesis is accurate, however, because regardless of the degree to which equality, multiculturalism and positive race relations are stressed by the media in the US and the UK, my own experience remains thus: that both the US and the UK are still essentially a White Man's Empire, and non-whites face (and will continue to face) an amount of prejudice proportional to the degree to which they emphasize their ethnic identity in social settings. In the US, a black man who "acts black" will be seen by most whites as threatening. A black man who "acts white" will not; he has (allegedly) been assimilated and therefore neutralized.

That is what annoys me about a lot of the rhetoric I encounter about equality, multiculturalism and positive race relations. It's a lie. Most people (and, by extension, the society they create collectively) don't want to learn about the unfamiliar and accept it as equal. They want representatives from other cultures who choose to live among them to assimilate or at least conform. "You can be as different as you want to be, but please don't confront us with it. That is rude. It makes us uncomfortable, and we very much dislike feeling uncomfortable." There have been exceptionally few cultures in human history that truly welcomed the not-like-us and gave it positive social standing without conflict.

As Agent K said in Men in Black (1997): "A person is smart. People are dumb panicky dangerous animals, and you know it."

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

Of course, intermarriage is perfectly possible. Although being a British Jew is different to being of mixed ethnicity. Perhaps that's because I see British as a civic identity; and find it difficult to imagine Black/Asian English identity existing, while Black British makes perfect sense.

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

Really? Interesting. I don't see it myself, but the world would be very dull if we all thought the same way.

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

"I saw one Asian guy in any kind of advert, and he was dressed in anglicized style clothes [...]. No women in saris. No women in salwar kameez. No men in turbans."

Do Asians have to be wearing "authentic" garb to be representative of British Asians? Surely the experience of immigration is that both Cultures change.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

That's a good point, and I guess most British Asians I know don't dress like that. I think I was mostly using dramatic language for the sake of it.

I don't think I've seen anymore than the one guy in the Post Office ad who look Asian to me. Of course, I could be missing them horribly - like - I never knew Freddy Mercury was Asian until I saw a biography of him on TV in which his very heavily accented Indian mother was talking about his childhood, and the boarding school he went to in India. I was a bit 'ohhhhh...' about that.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Sorry - I didn't mean that non-Christian religions were dodgy. what I was trying to say was that they were perceived as 'dodgy' - in the same way salwar kameez are viewed as odd, when they are actually very pretty, very flattering and really comfortable and I miss mine horribly.

I was being hyperbolic, and writing in a hurry. This makes me slightly prone to being daft.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Well, they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. You can get Asian Jews, I expect, although I've not met any. Quite a lot of Jewish people are quite dark tho, even those who have lived in Europe for generations and generations. It's one of the things that is meant to be quite remarkable about them as an ethnic group as well as a religion - genetically the average Ashkenazi Jew, who's ancestors mostly live in Poland, has more in common with the average Palestinian than the average Pole, I believe.

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's fascinating. It's amazing how these things pan out over time.

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

I think I'd probably miss "Anglicised Asians" on TV ads as well; of course once you take away the dress and accent, it's difficult to judge from a 30second TV ad other than based on skin colour - and as we know skin tones in India/Pakistan are fairly varied.

It'd e interesting to that same count you did; although no doubt there are whole research projects based on couning minorities on tv ads...

....

That story about the black employee being air brushed out of a car ad comes to mind.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Oooh...interesting.

Maybe I'm just watching the wrong shows. I've not seen that at all.

*ponders*

I guess my televisual viewing is heavily skewed towards US crime show dramas, Film Four, and an assortment of music channels. Maybe what I'm running into is more me not watching the TV that the advertisers think Asians watch.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Have Afro-Caribbeans been here for longer than the Asian population?

There are references to 'lascar' seamen in random novels from the 1920s, and by 'lascar' they mean 'from India', and Britain had way closer ties to their Indian Empire than to their African, or to the Caribbean. My Mum was at boarding school with an Indian princess in the 1950s (really - she was the daughter of a maharajah) and her older brother was living in London at the time. I think it was the 1950s that the first wave of immigration from the Caribbean happened.

Not sure, but I don't think you're right about the time folk have been there. You might be right about the vocalisation tho.

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

"and find it difficult to imagine Black/Asian English identity existing"

Except perhaps Anglo-Indians, but that's a very particular group bound by a specific historical context... one that has already largely changed.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I am also wondering, based on Lol's comment, whether I'm also watching the wrong TV programmes or something. I know there's a bit of an industry based around putting the right ads in the right slot, and maybe my results were skewed on what I watch.

Which is a whole other weird train of thought.

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

Perhaps, apart from some Anglo-Indians, West Indian Society is more like England than Indian society is like England(!!).

West Indian migrants already come with English as their main language, are Christian, working class.

The role of America is also an interesting aspect; American cultural brings in Afro-American issue and culture - and because of American dominance part of our own cultural landmarks are those of the Black American....

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

I think most sub-continent immigration was from thee Kenyan and Ugandan Asians in the late '60's.

But yes, I think previously Indian elites were albe to move fairly seemlessly into British culture.... :D more class snobs than racists! :D

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*nods nods nods*

I SO agree with you there. It's where I kinda started this whole thing with - I've got this conviction that basically Britain has sort of learned 'how to not be racist' from America, and so have picked up all these odd twitches, like we're good with knowing that n***er is REALLY bad, but because there isn't such a large Pakistani population in the US, somehow p*k* is still bad, but in usage.

I can't think of more examples, but I'm sure they are there.

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

British officials certainly went to the USA on a fact finding missions in the late '60's after the long hot summer of racial violence... the Civil Rights Legislation brought in, in the states was modified to Britain fr the Race Relations act of '68 (IIRC)

....

But in respect of discrimination; its still afro-carribbean s (as well as Pakistaini and Bengali) who are suffering... Indians, I think on most indicators are doing well - particularly educationally.

...

“Integration is perhaps rather a loose word. I do not regard it as meaning the loss, by immigrants, of their own national characteristics and culture. I do not think that we need in this country a ‘melting pot,’ which will turn everybody out in a common mould, as a series of carbon copies of someone’s misplaced vision of the stereotypical Englishman. I … define integration, therefore, not as a flattening process of assimilation but as equal opportunity, accompanied by cultural diversity, in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance.”

Roy Jenkins, May 1966

I like that liberal elitist vision.

[sea-of-flame.livejournal.com]

Hrm, on a bit of a tangent - one of my colleagues & I both end up wearing a similar mish-mash of clothing styles to the office, in that we both wear thigh-length kaftans & jeans. I do so because kaftans are lovely and comfy, and avoid the breast-spillage risk of buttoned shirts - but she's...erm...Asian, so she may wear the same as more of a deliberate fusion of fashion styles.

I really ought to know how to describe her more specifically than that though - we've got a very multicultural office, so people's family backgrounds do often come up in discussion - being British & white I'm in a minority! Her family are from the indian sub-continent rather than the far East, but I don't know which country, and I'd hate to get it wrong...

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that wasn't very clear. I meant that they have been vocal about their rights for longer than the Asian population - which ties back into your comments about the American influence.

[pmp.livejournal.com]

I think my views can be summed up succintly "My country, my rules; their country, their rules"

To expand upon that further, whichever country you choose to reside in, an effort should be made to not challenge the status quo in any massive way. It's not about everyone being the same, it's about choosing not to deliberately act out against what is percieved to be normal patterns of behaviour

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

So if you're born in the UK, your parents were born in the UK, and it's the only place you've ever known, then you still have no right to be represented in the media, because you've got the wrong genetics?

I'm not particularly talking about whether Muslims should have the right to not dispense the Morning After Pill at pharmacies. I'm talking about the fact that on a basic level we are letting 4% of our population be invisible in the general media representations of our country.

I also feel that you're not being entirely reasonable if it's a comment on clothes or costume which represents one's culture. Do you object to Scotsmen wearing kilts to rugby matches? The kilt certainly isn't the norm in England, so should a Scot who comes south of the border leave that silly plaid skirt behind? I don't see that wearing a sari or a salwar kameez constitutes 'acting out against what is perceived to be normal patterns of behaviour'. I don't see that going to a Mosque or a Temple is that much worse than going to a Catholic church instead of a CofE church.

Or maybe I'm confused by what you're saying?

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

On another tangent, I'm reminded of a friend of pierot's who was Pakistani and used to say that he never objected to being called a 'paki', because it just meant 'pure'. So if some idiot wanted to yell 'pure one' at him, then that wasn't something he was going to get upset about.

He claimed that it was only Indians who would get upset at being called a 'paki' because of their own issues with Pakistan.

No idea how accurate he was, but it was something he said ages ago.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

That's quite interesting, and I think I agree. It's maybe not so much about colour and more about cultural differences?

[pmp.livejournal.com]

I'll be honest, I'm not an entirely reasonable person :)

However, that said, think about the purpose of advertising is to sell products, therefore I feel it

[adze.livejournal.com]

I've heard that before, from another source, if I remember rightly.

[sea-cucumber.livejournal.com]

*nods* I think perhaps most people find it easier to get used to what people look like (e.g. colour) rather than people's cultures.

If someone tried to act towards everyone the same no matter who they were (in the spirit of non-discrimination), they would not know if they would offend the people of a different culture/religion, so they will probably focus their non-discrimatoryness on groups who *look* different yet share a similar culture/religion?

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

So we shouldn't treat our neighbours as we would wanted to be treated ourselves ? :P

[pmp.livejournal.com]

Doh! clicked post instead of moving the screen...

Anyhow, as I was saying, I feel that it's unreasonable to impose rules on advertisers to force them to represent minorities that are not their target audience. It smacks of political correctness gone mad IMO. Let's not forget that adverts are designed to be an unrealistic image most of the time, they're to show the world how the advertisers think best reflects their products.

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

"It's not about everyone being the same, it's about choosing not to deliberately act out against what is percieved to be normal patterns of behaviour"

I'm all for drinking booze into the early hours of the morning and vomiting in the streets... I think it's entirely unreasonable immigrants don't do the same.

...

Is there such a thing as one English/British culture?

[sea-cucumber.livejournal.com]

I am talking about how I think some people act in general with regard to others (my above comment can be simplified to that they are scared of offending someone), not what I would do :) I suck mightily at explaining!

I try to find out and learn about other religions/cultures/countries/etc., and act towards everyone in a civilised sort of way* with slight changes if I was going to be really cheeky by doing so (e.g. offering a Muslim a non-alcoholic drink at a party instead of beer or something). Generally being polite and nice and interested in everyone I guess.

*This can be summed up by Bill and Ted's rather good phrase 'be excellent to each other' :):)

[(Anonymous)]

I knew I should have left that other paragraph in :)

Basically I was going to include a paragraph about how some of the behaviour of the minorities can be viewed in the same way someone would view anti-social behaviour such as exccess drunkenness in public etc.

All in all though, it's about people feeling intimidated by strange and unusual behaviour. I also do not subscribe to the view that everyone should be treated equally, you should treat each person as an individual, it's not the same thing because it does mean that people from ethnic minorities can be passed over for jobs because they struggle with being understood etc..

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

I think that's the best way to be.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to articulate something, and I don't know how well I'll do.

Basically, advertising obviously does have rules about how it functions. They are not allowed to be offensive - ie Hitler Beer is right out. They are expected to conform to certain standards re: decency with regards to how much clothing the women wear. You can't say 'let's not impose rules on adverts'. We've already crossed that bridge. Furthermore, a lot of advertisers are already using Black faces in their ads. They've already decided that they want to look more inclusive and more representative of British society, instead of reflecting Aryan Fairytale Land. So they've kinda made that choice already. I'm mostly pointing out that they aren't doing it very well.

Secondly, I'm currently trying to think what it must be like growing up in Britain, especially if you were living in a small welsh town, for example, where you were the only non-White kid, and feeling totally invisible. Imagine turning on the TV, and every image you saw said that to be pretty you had to be white and blonde. I think that the fact that TV only shows skinny people is pretty damn depressing too, by the way. To my mind, the positive effect of kicking some rather well paid men in jeans and suit jackets and saying 'oi - why don't you consider using Chuli for your next Timotei girl' outweighs the negative of those same men in suits needing to think a little more creatively and possibly losing a bit of the White Power Pound.

[obake.livejournal.com]

I don't know how it is in the UK, but according to my parents, Asians are classified as "White" as opposed to "Colored". This is from back when they used to live in the South during the 60s and there was still formal segregation. When they had to choose between the White and the Colored option, they were supposed to choose the White option. Of course, this is from decades ago, but I imagine that the unconscious classification is still present (I do my best to avoid the South myself).

[lexx-uk.livejournal.com]

Only the those of kernow are british..........the rest are just invaders.........every ad, Tv program and Radio station should pander to the people of the dutchy........

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

My DNA says otherwise!

[insert long and complicated ramblings about current archaeological theory and why the Anglo-Saxon invasion might have actually been three men in a longboat called Sven]

[pmp.livejournal.com]

Secondly, I'm currently trying to think what it must be like growing up in Britain, especially if you were living in a small welsh town, for example, where you were the only non-White kid, and feeling totally invisible

This is the part of political correctness I object to most of all. It smacks of "bleeding heart" approach to life, you simply cannot cater to every single persons feelings and opinions when you're doing something that affects millions of people at once.

Long ago, we decided the best approach for a society to take is to serve the will of the majority, it's the very foundation of Parliment in fact, represent the will of the people. All political correctness has done is given a disproportionate voice to a very small group of people. It's all well and good making sure equality is available on the small scale (e.g. going for a job) but trying to apply it over something as large as advertising is an effort in futility because it'll become disproportionate.