Race, immigration and cultural diversity in the UK

[annwfyn]

This comes from a discussion on someone else’s LJ, in which I found myself feeling quite surprised by some of the views that were being expressed about race, immigration, and cultural diversity in the UK.

I am, therefore, offering up a poll for your interest.


[Poll #974234]

One thing I've realised is that my views have changed over the last year or so, and slightly weirdly it is mostly down to LJ. A while ago I got into the habit of drifting around various LJ communities, and peering at them with a kind of fascination. Amongst those communities, I came across debunkingwhite and ap_racism, which I read for a while.

When I first starting reading them I found half the entries to be absurd, and bordering on the offensive. I mean, white people weren't like that. All these people were being ridiculous, and seeing race demons where they didn't exist. Or maybe things were like that in America, but they weren't like that in the UK.

I think I may actually have started refusing to read those communities, because they annoyed me so much. To a certain extent, I do think some of the things I've read there are ridiculous. I still vehemently disagree with the lunatic who wrote that "I've come to believe that White interferance in PoC communities will never be a positive thing, and the only thing we can hope for in America is peaceful segregation". When the hell did segregation become something that the anti-racist movement should aspire towards?

Yet reading these communities and just opening my eyes did begin to make me notice things a little bit more. I noticed the woman at Cancer Research UK, who bitched about 'all these foreign doctors' who were apparently the problem with the NHS these days because 'well, dear, these people just don't understand cleanliness, do they?' and the way no one in an office of five people even tried to correct her. I noticed the number of people who said things like 'well, there are a lot of black people in my area, and I just don't feel safe walking the streets at night'. Why on earth does that have to do with the black people? Say there's a high crime rate. Say you live in a pretty poor area. Why on earth is someone predisposed to mug you due to the pigment in your skin?

These days, I do think that maybe racism is more of a problem than I think we like to admit, and I think it is also something that lurks a lot closer to home than we realise. My final awakening came when I was sitting on a bus in America. A big black guy in baggy jeans, covered in bling, got on and sat down next to me. I tensed up. God knows why, but on some level I was nervous about this guy sitting next to me.

I think I kept glancing at him nervously for about five or ten minutes before he turned to me and said "am I making you uncomfortable?"

The minute he said that, I realised what a completely unreasonable cow I was being. Why on earth was I glancing suspiciously at a random stranger who had done nothing to deserve it. I said "oh, I'm sorry...no...of course not" (which was a lie) and he (bless his kindness) said "oh! You're British" and we wound up chatting for the rest of the journey, with my ignorance apparently being forgiven as some kind of odd cultural thang. He was a lovely guy. But I'd been afraid of him for no good reason other than my own prejudice.

Since then I've done my level best to watch my own stupid thought processes, and I've tried to prod and poke others. But I do think it's there, and I think although we wrap it up in a lot of different words and phrases, we are still carrying a couple of centuries worth of prejudice and preconception around in our heads most of the time.

Comments

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

My answer for the last one is only if it is a statement based on statistical proof. If figures say that more crimes are 'black' related then that is a statement of fact. If however someone assumed that crimes commited were because of skin colour without looking into reasons then that would be recist.

[borusa.livejournal.com]

[alasdair.livejournal.com]

I'd actually say that I am actively happy to live in an immigrant area. I love the fact that my local shops stock stuff that you can't buy in most supermarkets. I love the fact that there are fireworks going off in my area for great chunks of the year, as opposed to just on the 5th of November.

And I completely agree with tooth_fairy's comment above - literal quoting of actual fact is not racist of itself, but at the same time, but it could easily be made racist by context.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

You appear to currently be showing up as the strong silent type on my LJ.

Or, in other words, this comment is blank, which I presume is unintentional.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

You live in Tooting, don't you?

I'm frequently quite jealous of you. I really really miss living in an area where I could get decent fabric from a sari shop, or go poke at nice shalwar kameez type things, or just get a decent curry which wasn't quite as generic as the Anglo-Indian stuff that turns up in a lot of takeaways in London.

[sea-cucumber.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of racist stuff comes from not knowing enough about the different countries ethnic minorities come from.

I don't think it is racist to feel uncomfortable around people of a different race, it's just when someone doesn't know enough about whatever culture to not accidentally say something bad! It's the same in any social situation really, anyone would feel uncomfortable when in a situation where they don't know how to act.

I don't get it myself as such, I think having been to different countries helps a lot then you understand about people generally a lot better - but I can see how some people would find it a bit strange.

I will also point out I agree with the people above, a factual comment based on actual statistics is not racist, but assumptions/generalisations/stereotyping based on that is definitely bad...

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Yes...I understand. And there are reasonable responses to there being higher incidents of crime in black areas, which is maybe to look at the economic crap that goes along with it, ask what is going wrong with inner city schools which keeps people uneducated and unable to break out of poverty etc.

Then there's the unreasonable response (which I read lately in the Times) which is 'crime keeps going up in black areas. Immigration is bad and multiculturalism has failed'. That vexed me a tad.

[silver-blue.livejournal.com]

I don't mind it, as long as they try and adapt to the British way of life. I get a bit uncomfortable with the women in veils, or the people talking in foreign languages all the time

Although I ticked the box, it's really the first part that I agree with. Women in veils, everyone talking in a foreign language, it's not really a major issue for me. But I do think that learning the language of the country in which you live is at the very least a desirable courtesy, and that developing a cultural and racial isolation is counter-productive to integration.

All of the definitions of racism that you point out in the survey are true to an extent. Not all of them are conscious racism or aggressive racism, some of them are issues that...well...just exist without necessarily a specific desire to do that.

I don't think that racism is a massive issue in Britain - though how much of that is because I'm viewing it from a relatively privileged white standpoint I don't know. I do think that a lot of the left-wing/liberal press fosters an idea of racial "victimhood" that is not particularly productive and actually is racist in itself.

[kizzie.livejournal.com]

That last bit of the poll is awful, so I'm gonna clarify what I think a little.

It's not racist to say that there is a much higher crime rate amongst black males

--Only if the figures ACTUALLY reflect this however, it is racist to go around saying it without any actual evidence.

A lot of ethnic minorities trade on their ethnicity to get things done.

--Some people use it as a badge for why they can't do X Y and Z, rather than just ignoring the whole thing and getting it done. I remember someone I worked with telling me they wanted to go to uni, but coudln't because of their family the university woudln't let them in. Just utter crap. People's perceptions of what others think is often wrong but there is a lot of sensitivity based around it.

I think the first time I ever actually thought about racism was one time when I was about 14 and the teacher asked us all to put the class into the different "colour" (ethnic? country? who knows) groups. I just stood there for about 10 minutes trying to think about this entire thing, and it took a conscious effort to realise that one fo my best friends was actually not white (I don't know the politically correct term for this) then another 10 or so to work out who else in the class was. It was such a shock to have to think in those terms and something I had never done. For me it was just "That's Jasvier, she's my friend."

The second time was being screamed abuse and having things thrown at me (they were too far away for them to hit) when getting a bus home from work last summer. "White scum" were not allowed in thier area apparently.

One clarification:

[lanfykins.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's racist to be uncomfortable around someone of a different race, as long as you make an effort to overcome it. I think I'm making a distinction between racism as views-you-hold and racism as instinctive-reactions-you-have.

I might be uncomfortable around someone of a different race, or religion, or social class, not because I'm prejudiced against that race/religion/class but simply because I'm not familiar with its 'rules' (if I smile at them, will they take that as politeness or as overfamiliarity? I'm curious about whether that jewellery/clothing/other has any religious significance, but is there any acceptable way of asking? Do we split the bill evenly or according to what we each ate?). I don't think that's entirely avoidable, but I also don't think it's necessary for it to get in the way.

[kizzie.livejournal.com]

*nods* some of the food shops around this area are great! We have all sorts of random things. (I have yet to see what is in the Iraqi based food place yet... mmm. experiment for tonight!)

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I don't think it is racist to feel uncomfortable around people of a different race, it's just when someone doesn't know enough about whatever culture to not accidentally say something bad! It's the same in any social situation really, anyone would feel uncomfortable when in a situation where they don't know how to act.

I suppose that makes sense - I think what I was thinking was a bit dubious, which I've seen in a couple of cases - is people using that as a reason why they don't like living in a certain area, or why they think immigration is a problem, and they say this stuff without even really trying to look at why they are twitching, or without trying to get on with someone from a different culture and that does bother me.

I think maybe it makes a big difference whether you say "Ok, I feel a bit awkward, but I'm going to try" (which is what I try and do in class situations where I feel uncomfortable - I come from this horrible middle class sheltered background and have a load of awful and snobbish instincts in my head) or just say "OK...I feel uncomfortable and so I shall now ignore and avoid these people and try and make sure I don't have them in my life" which does seem quite icky to me.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Yeah...I always used to think racism wasn't a major issue in Britain, but of late (over the last year or so) I think I've begun to suspect that it's a lot easier for me to not see racism in Britain because I'm never affected by it.

I think on a low level there's quite a lot of it about, and I think when you get out of our comfortable middle class, university educated and economically quite privileged world it actually gets a bit worse. Jez used to come home from fundraising with some very depressing stories about the kind of thing his Asian fundraisers used to deal with on a day to day basis in some areas.

hi

[reindeerflotila.livejournal.com]

I strongly draw a difference between two things brought up by your poll.

Racism Vs Prejudice, and Internal Privilege Vs External Action.

I really think it is important to draw a distinction between having a racist attitude and acting upon it. I firmly uphold anyone's right to think "bloody Paki's ruining the country" to themselves, so long as they don't actively behave in this manner, then they lose my vote.

I also think that discriminating against someone in a hiqab is not RACSIM it is prejudice based on RELIGION. I think this because you are not being racist if you behave prejudically against a white american Muslim.

I shall clarify why I said that I have been racist, I have a lot of Indian (high caste((brahmin)) Hindi in fact), friends and their attitude to Pakistani Muslims began to rub off on me for a while. To be fair, so did their attitude to low caste ( or 'patel's as they often just say). I got over it though.


just some thoughts...

[borusa.livejournal.com]

Bah! It was about a page long! Stupid internet!

Re: One clarification:

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*nods*

I agree totally!

[borusa.livejournal.com]

I think there's an important distinction between racism and racial prejudice. I believe everyone has prejudices - I'm deeply suspicious of anyone who claims not to - but the important question is how you act, and whether or not you're aware of them. I would be more nervous and uncomfortable walking in to a room filled with black men than a room filled with white men. I would it were otherwise, but that's a product of the environment and society I was brought up in. How I choose to act, however, in such a situation, is within my power. It is in the way we choose to act that we determine whether or not we are behaving in a racist way.

I also think that most people have probably said or done something racist or sexist in their life. I deplore the tendency to label someone as "racist" based on one comment or action - in many cases it's a question of someone acting on their prejudice, and it should be forgiven, but not condoned.

Like sexism, racism is not something that can easily be got rid of - it's ingrained in all communities and societies across the world - but it is something that can be made better, can be fought against - not in the expectation of winning, but in the expectation of reducing.

[borusa.livejournal.com]

Managed to rescue it!

Re: hi

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

When I was living in Nepal I used to spend my time entirely with high caste nepalis - basically - I was working in a school, and the teachers and their friends were all brahmin or chetri caste. They used to occasionally whitter about caste and how you could tell what caste someone was by looking at them, and how certain characteristics were pretty much universal in a caste. I looked brahmin, apparently, which they all said meant I was probably obssessed with money.

It took me ages to get that out of my head, especially when meeting folks from Asian backgrounds. I used to have the caste categorisations running through my brain, which really isn't OK.

On another note, jez used to have a posse of Pakistani Muslims working for him when he was fundraising. Most of them were surprisingly OK with the word 'paki' and said it was Indians who hated being called that. One of his fundraisers - a guy called Taran - used to say that 'paki' meant 'pure' and why would he object to being called pure. Not his problem if some idiot English guy didn't know what it meant.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

Huzzah! And it is a very good comment which I entirely agree with as well.

[wildrogue.livejournal.com]

To clarify some of what I've said above, and generally add my tuppence worth:

I think racism is still a problem in Britain, possibly far more than we realise. I was utterly incensed a couple of weeks back to find a poster for the Arian Knights stuck up prominently on my way to work. I tore it down and spent the rest of the day being upset by it.

That said I think there are equally circumstances where we are too careful, and where there is too much emphasis on race. For example there has been discussion of American style 'positive discrimination' in job interviews, uni application and the like. My view is that this is absurd. By all means take someone's economic background into account - for example someone getting As and Bs from a school in a bad area is likely to be as bright as, or more than, someone getting straight As from a private school. Race should never come into it - these things should be done on pure ability and nothing else.

I am aware that my opinions and my gut reaction don't always match. Like you I have been made unconfortable by big black guys and I always kick myself mentally for feeling that way. I don't think this is racist though - I think it's an unfortunate bi-product of stereotyping and sad truths. It is, sadly, true that a young black man is more likely to get involved in crime than a young white man because so many black people live in 'bad' areas. This is a dreadful situation and one that I hope I live to see remedied but I don't know what the solution is.

To throw a bit more oil on the fire I'll add that I sometimes despair of our tendency as a nation to try and apologise for our national identity and widen so called cultural diversity. I actually agree that Britain has a national identity and a cultural heritage and I do think that people moving here should accept that to some degree. This is not to say (before I am shot down in flames) that I think all Muslim women should give up the veil, or that people should only speak English, but if you like in a country you should make an effort to learn the language at the very least. My personal advice to anyone wanting to live in Britain would be: keep your cultural background, but learn about ours as well and accept that you are now a part of that. Britain is, after all, a nation of migrants and that has brought us some amazing things - adding to it can only be good as long as it is adding and not expecting the native British to change to someone else's culture to make them feel more comfortable.

I'm not sure I've explained that very well. Challenges/opinions/questions more than welcome.

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

Are you familiar with the implicit association test? It's a bit scary.

Basically it brings up pictures of people of different ethnicities and then asks you to decide whether a word is a positive word or a negative word. These words have little to no ambiguity as to which category they should go in. The idea is that when faced with a picture of, say, a black person, if you have trouble making a positive association with that picture, it will reflect on how long it takes you to to decide if the word is positive or negative. The overwhelming number of westerners show a bias towards white people over black people, including about 50% of black people who take the test.

There were a number of theories bandied around to explain this phenomenon, ranging from the seemingly obvious (conditioned social bias) to the outlandish yet still eeriely plausible (the contrast between skin and eyes/teeth fires an instinctive amygdala response resulting in intimidation). One quite telling and chance find was that people often responded with a positive association to black people on days following the televising of the Olympics, which features a large number of black people cast in a positive light.

Power of suggestion.

Re: hi

[reindeerflotila.livejournal.com]

*nods* it's all about knowledge in some cases.

I would also add some more points, I am all for immigration WHEN IT IS DONE PROPERLY and I would also say that anyone seeking to emigrate to any country should have a basic grasp of the language, and not display an attitude of dislike in relation to the country/people. It's just Rude. Much the same as I don't go to countries even on holiday unless I know enough of the language (however poorly pronounced :P) to get by.

Re: hi

[omentide.livejournal.com]

It's not even religion...

It's more of a cultural choice. This becomes very clear if you travel in Turkey.

My problem would be if a woman was pressured (by family) into dressing in a certain way. But then, most women do feel pressured into dressing in a certain way, so it's complicated. Is it worse to be pressured by your father than it is to be by some fashionista who doesn't know or care for you?

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I think maybe it is problematic that we don't really have any very good way of separating out different kinds of racism/prejudice. I do think that most sheltered white kids do probably have some racist or prejudiced ideas or behavioural tics in their brain.

I think the problem is that when the word 'racist' is used, what people think about is KKK members burning crosses, or obnoxious skinheads beating up black kids, or really really bad behaviour that no one wants to be associated with at all, and so of course everyone freezes up and gets defensive if their behaviour is described as 'racist', because what they hear is 'you're the kind of person who does this awful stuff'.

And that's sort of tricksy, because it makes it much harder to say "look - you're not evil - but that bit of your brain which says that those loud black people are a bit threatening isn't being nice or reasonable" which is what I think does need said a lot of the time.